Actually, Infinity, I feel weird just reading your post! :-)

There is no difference in principle between a bass reflex design utilizing a port, such as the JM Labs stuff you mention, and ones with a passive radiator like Thiels. Two variations of the same thing - they just have slightly different ways of coupling the air volume contained within the reflex cabinet to the air outside in the listening room. All the same math applies, so your implied criticism of the fact that all reflex designs will feature a minimum-motion frequency for the woofer where the port conversely develops its highest output, and also of the fact that air compresses so there will be some small delay in the port action, applies just as equally to your recommended speakers as it does to Ramesses' (and my) Thiels.

While exact alignment properties having to do with extension frequenies, Q resonance, and damping are determined by the properties of the driver, port, and cabinet, and will vary between makers and models, it is obviously entirely possible to construct speakers with good-sounding bass utilizing reflex principles, since that's the way the vast majority of high-end speakers are designed. If that's something you can't accept in theory, then you'll need to get yourself some sealed-box acoustic suspension speakers (such as Dunlavy) or bass transmission-line loaded speakers (such as Meadowlark). Hope that clears things up for you! Happy listening, Z.

zaikesman July 05, 2002 23:37

Due to the passive bass radiator, Thiel speakers has weird bass. Because of different "pumping in and out" action with both the bass speaker and the radiator... A lot of time, bass will be cancel out (because the bass unit is pumping in and the passive radiator is actually pumping out letting it go with the 1/1000 beat delayed due to air flow timing) , so you will feel weird on the bass. Sometimes there is a lot, and sometimes bass disappear and sudden comes back out. Change speakers if you feel the same as me. You can get a pair of JM Lab Electra Seris and have a lot of fun with it. Made by Focal units and sounds three times its price. Only around $2000-3000 used. Mark Levinsaon is 20 bit, use it as a transport, and get a MSB Platinum plus dac , upsampling to 192K/24 bits. If you have further question, Email me at:
cw_ebay@hotmail.com

infinity_audio July 05, 2002 04:53

Minh, that would automatically mean new speakers as well, in the case of Thiels. Jim Thiel provides only one set of binding posts, so that well-meaning audiophiles can't go and compromise all the careful work he does on matching the internal crossover to the drivers and their positioning within the cabinet to preserve optimal dispersion, phase response, and frequency response. I do wonder what J.T. could do, though, if he ever decided to introduce a model that utilized a dedicated line-level crossover instead. Unfortunately, this approach has never seemed to fly too well in the marketplace.

zaikesman July 05, 2002 01:16

I suggest looking into bi-amping and use an active crossover. That's what I want to do with my setup.

minhnguyen July 04, 2002 11:13

Zaikesman, I would take for granted he knows what amp he's got. Unless he just "fat fingered" on the keyboard which I'm proned to do, I made my suggestion on what I would want more of. But like like you mention, without knowing what he reaching for it's hard to make a suggestion. But as far as suggesting an upgrade I would tend to go for the source first. Especially if I truley know I'm upgrading. There are so many good cables out there that it hard to suggest one over another unless you know what your trying to achieve. Even then, in a lot but not all cases, I would get to cables last. Because of matching issues I think it one might be more prone to just change the sound as opposed to improving it. But I also agree he already has top notch gear. That why I made the partial assumumtion that he might be longing for a different presentation.

jhardy July 04, 2002 04:15

I second the upgrade to a 390s. I have a 380/334 and just upgraded my 39 to a 390s and it was a significant improvement. I am using Audio Physics Avanti Century speakers and they are a great macth.

cablues July 03, 2002 04:36

Jhardy, I think Ramesses has a 334, not a 336. Maybe he should get one before he goes to bigger speakers, however. I'm amazed no one has said to change the cables. Not that I know anything about the HMS cables, it's just that usually everyone wants to start by scrapping the cables! My suggestion: Ramesses, you haven't given us any clues about what you would like to improve, how you typically use your system, or what your musical/sonic preferences are, but I'll go out on a limb and suggest that you already own top-notch gear, so if you haven't done comprehensive acoustical treatment of your listening room, now may be the time to start (I also like the subwoofer idea if your room isn't small). Good luck!

zaikesman July 03, 2002 03:17

My tendency would always be to upgrade on the front-end and work your way back. There is nothing wrong with your choice of speakers. Try getting more off of your source and the speakers will sound better.
Do you just have a bug or is something wrong with the way your system sounds now??? From where I'm sitting your system sounds pretty good!

nrchy July 03, 2002 02:54

I agree with Lordgorian except his choice of CD player. Being that I don't know what you would like to gain with your upgrade, I'll give my take on it since I'm familiar with all of your gear. If you like the sound of your 39 you, like me, won't care much for the electrocompaniet. It is a great sounding player but in comparison, in my opinion, it will sound slower in pace. The 390s upgrade might be the best cheap upgrade. A 360s or a dCS model DAC would be marginally better at much higher price. Plus I personally hate dealing with cd spindle pucks. All the speakers mentioned will give you a wetter sound than the Thiels which tend to sound too dry for my taste. All of us hear things a little differently and a slightly colored speaker ain't bad if you like the color. I tried but could not get to really like the Talon Audio Korus X. I did the love the Legacy Audio speakers with a subwoofer. Finally, if you really want to change your presentation to something that swings and rocks a whole lot more than your current set up, swap out the 336 for the newer version of the Plinius 250. Hopefully it won’t run as hot as the current version in class A mode. The sound stage will be just as good but it won’t be as transparent as your 336. Or give a listen to the big Gamut. Good luck! I’d love to hear what you come up with.

jhardy July 02, 2002 23:16

Why do you wish to upgrade? It seems as if though you have some fine equipment. Is the sound too bright, forward, hard, too soft etc? Let me know and I can offer some suggestions that may not even cost a dime!

peter jasz

alliedtvandsound July 02, 2002 22:21

Alright the weaknesses in your system are very clear. The most glaring weakness is your speakers. Next is your cd player. For your cd player i would switch it out to a electrocompaniet emc 1 mk II. This would not cost even a cent because you could sell your 39 for as much or more than an emc 1 mk II. The electrocompaniet is soooo much better than a 39 or a 390s for that matter that it will certainly floor you. Next come your speakers. I also agree with the suggestion of talon speakers but i would reccomend the new Talon Ravens. The talons for one do not require that much power. Also the ravens sound about 95% as good as the khorus X for about 1/3 the price. How did they do it? I dont know ... but they are one hell of a deal. Other suggestions include Merlin VSM Ms, Dynaudio confidence 5s, JM LAbs Mini Utopias, Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and Audio Physic Avanti IIIs. Feel free to personally email me for more specific help.

lordgorian July 02, 2002 21:42

Hello there, try to listen to Aerial acoustic speakers i have the model 8B with stands. they have a huge sound stage
and excellent dinamics. I think they will be a good match for you gear. they sound really good with my EAD and Rowland gear. Good Luck.

pmc July 02, 2002 20:42

You might consider a subwoofer. Right now you are missing the frequencies from about 20-38 Hz. (I know Thiel says that
the frequency response goes down to 33Hz but believe me the extension of my 2.2s is lower.) Thiel makes a dandy subwoofer that will curl your toes.

etbaby July 02, 2002 19:57

Hello,
You have a really good system. I don't know if you should upgrade. Maybe perhap SIMPLIFY it by connect your Cd player direct to the amp. If your ML-39 CD Player offers volume control, then sell your preamp. If it does not have the volume control, sell it , too. Then buy a different one with volume control. You will take your system to the next level, it sound better than upgrade any components, interconnects, speakers, power cord, etc...And still have some money to spare !!! I just sold my Mark Levinson No.26S preamp !!! Enough said ?

Regards
William

6chac July 02, 2002 19:44

Perpetual Tech 1A & 3A (with Wright mods) or see some recent threads for some pretty good modified DACs. If you like the Thiels, you might want to try the CS-6's. Otherwise, shop around. I loved the 2.3's when I owned them but felt the need for more bass and a somewhat fuller sound. Eventually, I ended up with Montana's. You may also want to review the threads on the audio shows (most recent in NY I think) to hear other opinions on some newer speakers. There sure are a lot of Khorus X fans! Never heard them though so can't speak to that. If you like a more upfront sound (like the Thiels), you might not enjoy the Revels (sorry Jameswei) or B&W, etc. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought they were a little more laid back (very nice though). Try speakers at home before you buy. Good luck. Nice system!

ozfly July 02, 2002 17:45

Talon Audio Khorus X speakers!

consttraveler July 02, 2002 14:54

Have you auditioned the Sony SCD-1 in your system? It's an excellent unit with SACD capabilities to boot.

stehno July 02, 2002 13:00

I would upgrade the Levinson 39 to a 390s and think about Revel speakers. The 390s is a clear improvement over the 39, more dynamic and colorful. Revel speakers are well-matched to Levinson gear, coming from the same corporate parent and probably voiced together.

jameswei July 02, 2002 12:19

You have really good stuff and I do not feel that you will necessarily better it with separates unless you went with a tube DAC like the Kora Hermes and used the 39 as a transport. I think your speakers would be my first move. Maybe check out the VMPS RM 40's - it would be a good match with your gear.

ljgj July 02, 2002 10:20

You have really good stuff and I do not feel that you will necessarily better it with separates unless you went with a tube DAC like the Kora Hermes and used the 39 as a transport. I think your speakers would be my first move. Maybe check out the VMPS RM 40's - it would be a good match with your gear.

ljgj July 02, 2002 10:04

System edited:

ramesses July 02, 2002 07:37