Gali,

There comes a time when those that seek the best hardware and software money can buy need to sit back and ask themselves: Am I willing to commit to the cost of TAPES that I'll play on a machine that will deliver all that the tape can deliver? Is that machine at the peak of it's performance?

Did I realize that master tapes, or copies, don't grow on trees and am I willing to pay the prices that are asked.

So, I have an 820 and know that it will deliver the best tape can deliver; did I buy it before I realized that great tapes are scarce and expensive? If so, why did I buy it if I wasn't willing to feed the beast?

The Tape Project offers material that they hope will attract members who are looking for the sound they can't get from any other format. They're looking for audio purists that will support their EXPENSIVE and RISKY venture to deliver to the Audiophiles that are always looking for the Holy Grail of sound.

Availability of master tapes is expensive. You get what you can from that which is available.

I generally pay $100 for a copy of a tape that is purported to be a master or a copy, 30 minutes at 15 ips and I supply a reel of ATR Master tape, plus shipping both ways. This is more than TTP charges and they have a pedigree on product and performance.

At times I'm disappointed with the transfers I get, but then I realize the options are slim to none. On the other hand, they're surprises that make the journey worthwhile. A 2nd generation copy of "Belafonte At Carniege Hall" knocked my socks off!

In my humble opinion, if you have an 820, either feed it or sell it to someone who will enjoy the songs it can sing!

regards, Ken

kftool January 28, 2010 03:23

After my last comment I decided to be quiet, so I turned on my record player and listened to an old Harry Partch record "Delusion and the Fury". Do you have this in your collection? If you haven't listened to this in a while put it on and see how how the soundstage and balance is in your room. If you can listen to the music (many can't) the sound can really draw you in. It also has some extreme low frequencies that you might not be aware of until you stop playing it.............

idos January 27, 2010 14:39

Gordon,

as i recall you live in So. Cal. Sam and Sonny (C1ferrari) live in San Diego and also have an A820. they visited just after Christmas and heard some tapes here on my A820. you could e-mail him and discuss what he heard here. i don't want to speak for them.

my A820 is stock; it is is very good condition and likely optimized (refurb by Fred Thal). i cannot say whether the performance on my A820 could be better than yours or not. at this point i have no mods however there are efforts being made to come up with custom output electronics for the A820 and A810 which may be forthcoming soon. i have heard a preliminary effort on my A820 (in Nov 2009) and it was very very good. that would make a difference in the performance.

i play Lps on all three of my tt's and use the Lyra Olympos and Ortofon A90 as my references as well as the Allnic H3000 and dart phono. so let's say our phono performamnce is likely in the same ball parks.

i have Lps of almost every Tape Project tape and the tapes are either some better or crazy better depending on the particular Lp and Tape. tonality is better on the tape. there is a unique continuousness on the tapes (and my tt's are direct drive and rim drive).

regarding the Quietrock 545THX; is very heavy very nasty stuff to work with and almost $200 for each 4' x 8' sheet. it has a metal layer in it so it needs a saw to cut. so it's not a casual product to try. however if your situation calls for establishing a room boundary for bass then it's the best solution and may be an answer. talk to Rives and see if they think it would work. good luck with your room.

mikelavigne January 27, 2010 14:17

Glai,

I didn't know you had an A820 :-)

Regards,
Sam

c1ferrari January 27, 2010 08:21

Mike,

Yes, I have fond memories of your courtesy and your system.

I very much appreciate the suggestions and the link to Quietrock. I will get at a few panels to field test it. It is at least a worthwhile experiment to pursue as they are 30 mins away. I have moved the rack to the side and block the fireplace with tube traps already. I will test this material covering the fireplace, door and windows.

I am about to give up on tapes. I subscribe to the project but there is so little material I enjoy. With a stock, maintained A820, pitch accuracy, tone are first rate but the detail is behind my vinyl playback. I would think the performance lack is due to hardware. Any tips on the A820? Change head or mods?

glai January 27, 2010 07:09

Hi Jonathan,

I'm sorely tempted! It'd be great to be of any assistance, and, of course, listen and learn :-)

From SoCal,
Sam

c1ferrari January 27, 2010 06:57

i just listened to a new Tape Project tape, TP-011, Linda Ronstadt's 'Heart Like A Wheel'. for anyone not familiar, these tapes are 1/4" 15ips master dubs.

even though the fabric walls are still up, the tape sounds fantastic. the bass energy and tonal richness in Linda's voice are captivating. tomorrow night, after my contractor removes the fabric panels, i'll listen to this again.

mikelavigne January 27, 2010 05:40

Sam,

Come up to Mike's this weekend. I will be visiting and doing some measuring. It would be great to see you guys again!

I am really excited. I believe the changes Mike has implemented will reap huge benefits.

Jonathan

jtinn January 27, 2010 04:18

Hi, Mike,

Thanks for the updates. It'll be interesting to see how the room measures out.

-Sam

c1ferrari January 27, 2010 02:11

If you are changing the cloth on both sides that's a different story

yes; everything done on one side is done identically on the other. i ilke the feedback so keep it coming, i continue to learn.

mikelavigne January 26, 2010 20:08

Mike, Sorry, I must have misunderstood. I thought you were stiffening the wall on one side so its low frequency characteristics would be balanced with the other. If you are changing the cloth on both sides that's a different story and I'll be quiet now............

idos January 26, 2010 18:48

As I indicated in my story above, allowing bass energy to escape a dedicated room in not necessarily a bad thing. While both can present their own difficulties, having a rigid symetrical box with extremely stiff walls is far more challenging than one with some openings and natural bass absorption. Examples of these extremes would be a room with paper walls versus a room with poured concrete walls. You can see that each of these situations would be treated quite differently. So in some situations, "suckouts" can be your friend.

zargon January 26, 2010 18:27

Mike, Shouldn't both sides of the room have similar high frequency absorption characteristics?

Idos,

i'm not sure what you are referring to. i did not intentionally suggest an imbalance side to side either in my room or Gordon's....maybe be more specific.

mikelavigne January 26, 2010 15:44

Gordon,

one additional thought. ask Rives about adding a layer of Quietrock 545THX to the wall surface on the walls behind and to the sides of the speakers. also, cut out pieces of Quietrock for inserts into your window cavaties and fireplace (based on looking at your room pictures). a suckout occurs when the room boundaries are not uniformily defined and something is acting like a diaphram..

it's 1 and 3/8th inches thick (so you will lose a bit of room volume) and is not cheap. but for less than one half the cost of one of your cartridges you will likely solve your suck out problem at the source.

mikelavigne January 26, 2010 15:07

hi Gordon,

you are welcome, that was back in Sept 2008 as i recall.

every room will have peaks and dips in bass along the long center line of the room. and side to side too. the idea to design the room and locate the speakers to minimize these nodes. previous to my recent changes, if you moved forward or backward 2-3 feet the bass would change. i have not done that yet since the changes.

regarding your 40hz suckout; based on my experience i would expect it to be more based on the structure of your walls than in an openning. even though i had three layers of sheetrook on both sidewalls in my room; the structure behind those walls was different on each side, which caused my suckout. since i've not yet measured i don't have the whole picture yet; but my ears are happy now.

as far as measurments; that will be tomorrow after my fabric panels are removed (again).

i 'think' the bass is much more even now; based on 3 days of listening.

right now i have each speaker's crossover and bass gain identically set and no matter what i play or how loud it hangs together. images are clear and complete.

prior to my recent changes; i had the right side crossover set at 65hz and the left side set (factory) flat at 100hz. if i set them both at 100hz i would get considerable bass overhang around 100hz-120hz. there was a measurable bass suck-out 30hz-40hz and a bump higher up.

no matter how it measures; right now musically the bass is there. but i do expect there will be issues and no doubt i'll end up moving the speakers around and adjusting the bass controls quite a bit.

mikelavigne January 26, 2010 14:56

Mike, Shouldn't both sides of the room have similar high frequency absorption characteristics?

idos January 26, 2010 14:21

yesterday my contractor re-installed the fabric panels without the 1" fibreglass. i went home at lunch time to see how it was progressing. they had just finished hanging the last panel.....so i sat down and listened for 5 minutes.

the slight smearing was gone, but the sound was dulled and blunted too much, it was too clean.....the life of the music was missing compared to the naked Quietrock. the decay and air was missing.

it was clear what that cloth did to the sound.

the bass performance was still wonderful.

as i drove back to work i called Chis Huston and spoke about my impressions. Chris mentioned that the fabric was specd for a bass trap and is not acoustically transparent. we talked about alternatives.

last night i went home and listened for a hour to make sure my earlier brief impressions were correct. they were.

i need to retain the life of the bare Quietrock, add some diffusion, but hopefully still have some sort of wall where the fabric panels are. otherwise i'd need to refinish that whole area.

i have concluded that what i need is to attach some diffusion directly on top of the Quietrock and then have acoustically transparent fabric (like a grill cloth) in a matching color installed over the frames. the diffusion can be minimal, and it's ok for the fabric to dampen the highs just a touch (compared to the bare Quietrock).

looking back now at the various components of the bass traps and walls; i understand what i (and room visitors) had been hearing over these years. the wall structure, the fibreglass dampening, and the fabric covering all had their own affect.

tomorrow my contractor will return and remove the fabric panels. then i will measure and assess whether my idea of the diffusion and different cloth covers is the right way to go.

mikelavigne January 26, 2010 13:27

Mike,

Many thanks for allowing the visit previously. I am very interested in your system especially with new room modifications. Did this change the suckout at 30-40hz?

I am currently consulting with Rives too and I have a severe suckout also at 40Hz. We thought it was leakage thru a hollow door behind the seat. I went to home depot and got plywood to cover the door and no change. It was actually bass cancellation at the middle of dimensionally symmetric room. When the seating is moved off the center, the suckout disappear. This is different than your case as suckout is tilted to one side. Is there is difference in truncation of decay time in leakage vs cancellations?

glai January 26, 2010 09:44

"...determine whether i can (possibly) justify the investment (and the corresponding delay in my retirement)."

That's classic, Mike :-)

Best,
Sam

c1ferrari January 26, 2010 06:32

it seemed like there is a bit of image smearing from the exposed Quietrock panels. after speaking with Chris Huston this morning i have decided to re-install the fabric panels with the 1" fibreglass removed. we will just set them in place and not nail them in yet. this will give me the high frequency absorbtion i had before without any low frequency attentuation and the best way to listen and measure. my contrator is doing that now.

it may be that there will be too much high frequency absorbtion and then we will install a hard reflective surface in replacement of some of the fabric panels.

mikelavigne January 25, 2010 16:50

Try not to confuse yourself

:)

thanks.

mikelavigne January 25, 2010 16:24

Try not to confuse yourself. Never make more than one change at a time or you will loose your baseline reference.

idos January 25, 2010 15:04

i'll add that there is no hurry to button up the room; i lived with it the other way since Nov of 2004; so getting this change correct is the big thing. the timing of the monoblocks being here is in some ways unfortunate in that it does distract from the room changes. OTOH it does allow me to consider another perspective on the final room tuning balance.

mikelavigne January 25, 2010 14:47

i listened on Friday night with the Stereo 108 amp, then Saturday afternoon and Sunday with the pre-production monoblocks. i had planned on switching back to the Stereo amp on Sunday but the music was so complelling (trying to stay away from sweeping conclusions) that i just enjoyed (it was also compelling Friday night with the Stereo 108).

i'm not sure the room would measure differently with either amp; but likely the speaker set-up would be slightly different with the additional bass slam of the monos. hearing that ultimate control of 700-800+ watts of headroom on peaks is addictive. again i'll mention that the Stereo 108 was sounding pretty darn in control too. but grip is relative.

the Stereo amp is sitting there between the monoblocks so switching is a 5 minute thing.

my plan is to take a week and measure, invite local friends who have known my room well to give me their perspectives, and switch back and forth as i go along.

i won't have the monoblocks long; so i want to enjoy them while i can as well as determine whether i can (possibly) justify the investment (and the corresponding delay in my retirement).

mikelavigne January 25, 2010 14:38

It certainly complicates understanding the room effects by changing amps, but I do understand your strong desire to do so. Maybe you could take measurements with both?

zargon January 25, 2010 13:25