Sam and Zargon, i'm having fun and i do by a wide margin prefer the Quietrock and lack of front and side bass traps (at least as they were). there is considerably more body and tonal fleshing out of things, larger (in every direction) soundstage, much more bass decay, much more bass impact and considerably more dimentionality. whatever drawbacks there may be have not yet revealed themselves (with one temporary exception....i will explain).

i'm not saying we are done. we have not measured anything, and i still have unfinished Quietrock as my wall surface as well as a stud wall where the fabric panels were. i think i likely need some absorbtion on the wall surface still.

later yesterday i went thru a time when it seemed there was some sort of huge bass bump around 80hz to 120hz somewhere. i adjusted the speakers and somewhat lowered it but it was there. i was a bit confused as it had not been there the previous evening. then this morning it vanished and all was well.

hummmmmm? what could cause that?

then i realized that late Friday night before i went to bed i switched to the monoblocks and set the system to play continuously. then Sat am i got up and spent all the time before i went to work cleaning up so did not really listen until later yesterday afternoon.....which was when i percieved the bass hump and worked on dealing with it. then this morning i removed the shipping screws (they hold the suspended transformers steady during shipping). there are beautiful gold plated screws that cover the screw holes once the shipping screws are removed which i installed.

i recalled that this morning the bass hump magically disappeared at the same time i removed the shipping screws. i would have never connected those 2 events but clearly that was causing a distortion at certain frequencies.

amazing!

Zargon, yesterday i was definitely thinking about your comment that adding the Quietrock would intensify any room modes. right now i don't hear any obvious bass non-linearities, but i would expect that there are still issues. like i mentioned above, there might be a small bit too much refelctive energy....but maybe it's just right.

i have not switched back to the Stereo dart since Friday night; so it's hard to say what is causing what. the Stereo dart had no bass hump problem either.

i am now going to pull myself away from my keyboard before i get too carried away here about what i'm hearing in musical terms. i need to get some more objective ears over to listen with me and give me some feedback on the next step.

mikelavigne January 25, 2010 05:17

Congrats, Mike - I think you're having fun...

"the bass is dramatically more impactful. i can feel it. and there is a warmth and body i've not ever had in this room."

Best,
Sam

c1ferrari January 23, 2010 23:22

the bass is dramatically more impactful. i can feel it. and there is a warmth and body i've not ever had in this room

Mike, you are likely feeling the increase pressure in the room due to the stiffer wall. Even if you discover it doesn't measure as well, you might prefer it.

zargon January 23, 2010 23:04

absolute power corrupts absolutely; consider me corrupted.

i'm listening to the prototype monoblocks now. it's just more of everything. bigger, bolder, more grip, effortless and more dimentional. but really, as good as the monoblocks are, the Stereo 108, at least on the 93db, 6 ohm MM3's, is still in the realm in terms of information. it's the monoblock's presentation which goes to another level.

before i stopped listening last night i switched to the monoblocks so they could play all night and reach some sort of equalibrium by this morning.

the room is now delivering that decay in the lower registers that was lacking; there is also a bed of air infused into the soundstage missing before.

i'm listening to an Lp on the Rockport now of the Elgar Cello Concerto; Tortelier with Boult on EMI. the growl and tone of the Cello is wonderful.

mikelavigne January 23, 2010 17:25

from 6:30pm till 10:30pm i cleaned and worked on setting the system back up. my son was here helping a bit so we also uncrated the monoblocks.

they are really amazing just to look at.

i've been listening (using the Stereo 108 for now) for the last 45 minutes or so. i set all the adjustments to factory flat.

first impressions....caution....debatable objectivity.

it's all i was hopeing for and then some. i've lost none of the precision the room already had, and none of the spaciality. in fact, both are better as they seem more complete. i'm getting a wider soundstage, and quite a bit more lively sound.

the bass is dramatically more impactful. i can feel it. and there is a warmth and body i've not ever had in this room.

the speakers are not precisely positioned and there has been no attempt at any fine tuning.

just playing music and enjoying it.....

i'm really likeing where this is going. i'm sure that in the cold light of dawn there will be plenty of warts to work thru.

mikelavigne January 23, 2010 07:53

Good evening, Mike,

Sounds like an exciting weekend...wish I could be there to listen and learn!

From rainy and cold SoCal,
Sam

c1ferrari January 23, 2010 06:07

Hi Mike,

Good luck on the room adjustments.

I have to agree with you on the EV BNC's. I've had them in my system for over a month, ( pb to zeel pre & zeel pre to zeel amp ).I would say they should be close to being totally burned in. Well over 600 hrs.

Yes a 'game changer' is a good phrase to put it. As good as the original 50 ohm zeel bnc's are these are worlds better. Macro / Micro dynamics, air, body, depth of soundstage all improved. Another characteristic,, they are not a forward in your face type of cable. JT & Kevin were dead on these.

When you install them between your pre & amp,, enjoy the ride.

Ditto Henry, we need some economic karma... soon

Kind regards
Gary

grr6001 January 23, 2010 03:03

Henry,

the monoblocks, the MM7's, so many nice places to spend one's money.

frankly; everything ($$$'s) is back burner until i feel the room is right. i want to live with my present gear in the room with the bass fully participating. the MM3's have 4 15" powered woofers which ought to be rocking my world. as the room has been they do a great job and i don't feel any lack of speaker performance to be an issue.

OTOH the MM7's are a speaker made for a room like mine and no doubt there is a big temptation to seriously consider them. i can see that happening. the only problem with that direction is that i'll have to sell some of my other gear to afford it.

but first thngs first.

mikelavigne January 22, 2010 13:47

Henry,

i've had the Evolution Acoustics BNC's in my system for about 30 days a month ago....a 1.5m between the Playbacks and the Dart pre. it was a 'game-changer' in terms of levels of ambient information, spaciality, body, microdynamics, vividness and musical flow. when i removed them to send them to Kevin to be used at CES it was like taking the 'life' away from the system. i ordered a short BNC to replace it...ouch! it is not cheap. at that point i wanted to also order the long one (7.5m) to replace my pre to amp BNC but i could not afford to.

then i heard at CES what having both cables did and i just had to order the longer one.....which is now about 5 to 6 weeks out.

the short one will arrive today. breakin on the short cable is quiet dramatic and so i will have the music server feeding the dart pre 24/7 for a few weeks to get it right.

mikelavigne January 22, 2010 13:38

Bruce,

thanks.

i was hopeing you (and your dialed in ears) could maybe visit sometime this weekend and offer your feedback (or help measure). that would be much appreciated.

after hearing your room, and then the room at CES, i know this direction will be well worth it. the question is how many steps away from where it needs to be is it now.

mikelavigne January 22, 2010 13:30

Sam,

thanks. the dart monoblocks are sitting safely in the garage still fully crated waiting till the coast is clear to make an appearance.

my son will be here tonight to help me put the (575 pound) speakers back on the spikes and unpack the (approx 200 pound ea) monos.

Saturday Jonathan may come up from Portland to help me dial in the system with the new reality and to analyze and measure the room.

mikelavigne January 22, 2010 13:26

Hi Mike, will you be trying the EA BNC interconnects too? It would be interesting how they stack up against your Valhalla's and/or Transparent MM's or indeed the Zeel's?

And what about the MM7's...

We need a major economic upturn...sigh !

mtkhl567 January 22, 2010 10:05

Good luck Mike. Can't wait to hear the results. I'm sure it will be all worth it in the end!

crna39 January 22, 2010 06:21

Hey, Mike,

You're definitely not pathetic :-) Looking forward to hearing your observations with the dart monoblocks in your new environs.

Best,
Sam

c1ferrari January 22, 2010 05:32

got home tonight, went out to check out the progress. about 90% of the Quietrock is hung. it will be completed tomorrow early. tomorrow night i'll be cleaning up and re-installing the system.

when i was in the room tonight (by myself) i spoke to see how my voice sounds. i know there may be quite a bit of placebo effect involved, but i think my voice sounded more lively as well as having a bit more chestyness compared to my memory of how it typically had sounded in the room prior to the change.

there is plastic sheeting over all my gear and media shelves, so there is more things different acoustically than just the bass traps being removed. although i was speaking at the end of the room where the work is being done so the plastic sheeting at the other end of the room might not have that much effect.

am i pathetic? sure. this is a big deal to me and i am so curious as to how things will sound.

tomorrow night i should know.

mikelavigne January 22, 2010 03:09

Zargon,

thanks. yes, it will be interesting for me to see how it measures.

my contractor has removed the cloth panels and fibreglass and is now hanging the first sheets of Quietrock. when i called him a few minutes ago the first thing he said is 'i hate you' due to how heavy those panels are to move around. he'll be done tomorrow night or Friday am.

then i can listen and measure.

mikelavigne January 20, 2010 22:29

So let me get this straight, you paid RIVES to design and build the room, for you which you wrote about and detailed with such effervescing enthusiasm all over the World Wide Web. Then a year or so later you mucked with the center panel with various stages of diffusers. And now you are having the drywall replaced with QuietRock. Uhmm!!!!

1. You either need to get your money back from RIVES for performing an inadequate job in the acoustical design and implementation in the first place.

Or

2. You believe that with your limited knowledge of the principles of acoustics and psychoacoustics you can correct or compensate for the shortcomings and deficiencies in the RIVES' design and implementation.

It will be interesting to see the next level of deployment in this never ending exercise.

Have you ever given any thoughts on how the great "modern" performance and recording halls fine tune their acoustical environments? Does mechanically actuated panels and DSP-laden signal processing in the digital domain come to mind? It is easier to change settings in software and update firmware in processors than to tear down drywall and the best part about it is that you can make dynamic modifications in real-time as opposed to a one time static change in a trial and error fashion.

carlos269 January 20, 2010 16:27

Mike,

I did read your earlier post and am impressed by how carefully and thoroughly you have thought this project out. Your third goal of reducing damping (increasing RT60) is of course related to the goal we all have of smoothing the bass modal response. It will be interesting to see how well you can achieve a balance here.

zargon January 20, 2010 13:02

Zargon wrote;

Stiffing up the compliant side with Quietrock should help reduce this imbalance, but based on my experience, should also increase the modes. Depending on the size of the increase, this may require you to maintain or even increase the bass trapping.

Has your room designer considered this? I will be interested in how the measurements change. Good luck and have fun.

my posts from 1/12/2010 above get into more detail about the issues and proposed solution. there are three goals.

first, stop the diaphram action on the right side and front wall behind the bass trap. this requires a more solid room boundary to be established.

second, equalize the room boundaries on both sides.

third, reduce the overall dampening in the room.

one and two will be solved by adding the layer of Quietrock 545THX on each side equally over approx a 16' x 10' surface. this will establish the room boundary and equalize it. it is possible but unlikely that one layer will not completely solve it. we'll clean-up, re-install the system, listen, measure and then see where we are at.

if we need another layer we will add one.

then on to number three. how much room dampening is still needed after balancing the room? it's possible that once the room boundaries are established effectively that there will be sufficient gain in the bass strength and decay that we will still need the full dampening of the trap. so we will simply re-install the fibreglass and cloth panels.

we are basically removing a huge 16' x 10' x a varible width (18" to 0") bass trap. it's possible none of that trap is needed. then it's a matter of what wall surface is best. we could simply re-install the fabric panels, or do finish plywood, or even some sort of diffion. we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

regarding the room modes. yes, the room was designed to deal with those but until we measure the room after the Quietrock we won't know what we will have.

mikelavigne January 20, 2010 01:01

hi Marty,

good to hear from you. i read about the confab in the Bay Area at the Magico dealer and the various perspectives on it. very interesting. i also prefer a speaker allowing for precise in-room adjustments.

regarding the A90 compared to the PC-1 Supreme. my only experience with the Supreme is at shows, and those were positive if not particularly definitive. i did recently get feedback from an owner of an A90 and Supreme that you might find interesting. e-mail me and i'll refer you. i'd post it except it's second hand info and not appropriate.

the A90 is a no-brainer at $4200 list price. if you purchase one and it does not float your boat i would be very surprised, and you would likely sell it for more that it cost you. i liked my first one so much i bought a second.

read my posts from 1/12/2010 above and it will answer why i'm doing the room project with the Quietrock.

mikelavigne January 20, 2010 00:44

Mike, here are some thoughts on your room bass imbalance and Quietrock project. These are based on my own experience with rooms having stud walls versus cement block walls.

Rooms with thin or compliant walls tend to allow the bass energy to escape through the walls. This can be a blessing since it tends to reduce bass energy and thus reduce the modes, however, it can raise other issues with noise in adjacent rooms. The stiffer the wall, the more it reflects the bass energy back into the room, thus reinforcing modes since that energy does not escape.

For example, my current room walls are block, and the room measured almost flat when there were openings into adjacant basement rooms over each wall between the joists. When I sealed all of these openings in order to reduce noise, the modal responses peaked significantly.

As I understand it, you have stiff on one side and compliant on the other thus leading to an imbalance despite identical measurements. Stiffing up the compliant side with Quietrock should help reduce this imbalance, but based on my experience, should also increase the modes. Depending on the size of the increase, this may require you to maintain or even increase the bass trapping.

Has your room designer considered this? I will be interested in how the measurements change. Good luck and have fun.

zargon January 20, 2010 00:07

Mike, long time no speak. I was visiting Steve Williams in Danville last week and had some fun harassing local dealers (just kidding-went to hear the Magico 5 at a nice dealer on Oakland). While visiting, I also stopped by Mike Grellman'. Ever the considerate host, Mike let us listen to his system with a newly installed A90 on his Sirius. It had very few hours on it but still sounded rather ...special. My understanding is that you have a good deal of experience with it. I'm contemplating a cartridge purchase and would love to get you perspective on the Ortofon A90 vs the Air Tight PC-1 Supreme. Any insights would be most appreciated. Hope all is well. Have no idea what the hell you are doing with Quietrock in your superb room but have fun as any construction project is bound to fray a few feathers. Marty

ugamotz January 19, 2010 23:54

here we go.

tomorrow -12- 4' x 8' sheets of Quietrock 545THX will be delivered to my home and the project will begin. hopefully in a couple of days it will be hung and i can put the system back together and listen. i'll have no fabric or fibreglass over the Quietrock to begin with until we can listen, measure, and determine how much (if any) absorbtion needs to be added.

the darTZeel prototype monoblocks (from CES) will be delivered this afternoon. they will stay crated until the Quietrock is hung and things are cleaned up.

can't wait to hear the monoblocks rock in the 'improved' room!!!!

mikelavigne January 19, 2010 18:52

hi Gerry,

i did consider the SME 312s awhile back (about 2 years ago) for my Dobbins SP-10 Mk2 and Dobbins Garrard. the SME is certainly a good arm. originally i went with the Schroeder Reference SQ on the Mk2 and the Triplaner VII on the 301. when i sold the Mk2 in anticipation of the Mk3 i returned the Schroeder to Steve Dobbins and then when i got the Mk3 decided to go with the Reed 'L'.

i still have the Triplaner on the Garrard and it has an Ortofon A90 on it. the Triplaner/A90 sounds wonderful on the Garrard.

until recently i'd not really had a top level cartridge for the Mk3/Reed....although i have had a few different cartridges on it that i've enjoyed. i've recently aquired a second A90 and installed it there and am breaking it in. i am enjoying what a great lively combo the Mk3/Reed/A90 is. i've got approx 25 hours on it so far.

mikelavigne January 17, 2010 20:33

Metralla,

i know what you mean. will the difference between the stereo and monos be more than i can live without?

for how long?

and what must i sell to make the wife happy? or happy enough?

it's great living on the edge!!!!

damn that whole world economy stuff.

mikelavigne January 17, 2010 20:18