Henry,

hummmmmmmm. the quest never ends, does it.

how can i not dream about the MM7's and the dart mono's? my room was made for the MM7's with all my bass trapping. the dart mono's and 4 15" subwoofers per side would allow for essentially unlimited extension and dynamics.....as well as very flexible set-up choices for full frequency optimization.

OTOH the economics of those upgrades may not fit my current realities. i'm a bit tt poor and RTR deck poor at the moment. and even selling off some of those things (which i really enjoy) would only be a start. like everyone my net worth as well as business prospects have been under attack.....and the future prospects are murky at best when everything is considered (i will avoid any 'political' comments here on the 'goN). so one must be somewhat conservative.

also; i'm quite happy with where i'm at with the MM3's and the NHB-108.....they sound really good right now.

to be honest; i have been trying to figure out how to approach the SWMBO (she who must be obeyed) about this subject. the clouds have not yet parted to show the way to attainment just yet.

it is fun to dream about anyway. you can bet i'll be trying to do this if i can.....but it is far from certain.

mikelavigne March 27, 2009 13:53

McBrennan; thanks again for the comments.....the process in building the room was a labor of love. after 5 years i still look forward to listening to music in my room every day. getting the room/system optimized has been eye-openning and many times humbling experience. my wife was a partner in all the decisions about the look of the room and she feels very at home here too.

mikelavigne March 27, 2009 13:28

Mike, have you put your order in for the MM7's yet ... together with the DZ mono's ... ? I couldn't even get my mind wrapped around what that would be like!

mtkhl567 March 26, 2009 09:45

Great info ... thanks so much for the link. Your attention to detail has created a masterful result. The room and the system are exceptional. My wife shares my appreciation for your end result. Congratulations on a beautifully designed listening space.

mcbrennan March 24, 2009 00:39

Hi McBrennan,

thanks for the kind words.

the side and rear walls behind the speakers are large bass traps. the outside is acoustical fabric covered 1" Corning 703 semiridged fibreglass which allows the low frequencies to enter the trap. the inside walls of the trap are a sheetrock sandwich construction covered in 2" Corning 703 fibreglass. so on both sides are enormous bass traps.

i wrote an article which details much of the construction project. here is a link;

room article

mikelavigne March 24, 2009 00:26

First and foremost, thanks for sharing your system. It is absolutely gorgeous and inspiring. I might I have missed a previous Q&A, but I was hoping you could share some insights on the construction of the side walls and the rear wall behind the speakers.

Are they solid wood, fabric covered, insulated, etc. ???

Thanks!

mcbrennan March 22, 2009 14:23

I have tried Shunyata Antares, Nordost Valhalla and XLO Signature between the DarTZeel pre and amplifier and the 50 ohms BNC was always better in my system, independently of other cables - I always used complete sets of cables of the same brand and type.
When using non BNC cables the RCA options were better than the XLR.

microstrip March 21, 2009 22:01

yeah thanks mike, once again very informative and inspiring.
once it will be opportune i order nhb18 with two phonosections, twofold: this way there is possibility to load each section with different value resistors and do comparisons between. (my XCW feels very happy around 150 ohms btw)
but the thought of two arms come to mind as well.
the more you explore the DartZeel amps the more you realise Herve Deletraz has spent for good reason soo many years in designing and executing. brilliant really.

tuboo March 20, 2009 15:55

Thanks.

elberoth2 March 19, 2009 15:26

Elberoth;

yes; i did compare my 7 meter set of Valhalla XLR to the Zeel cable between the dart pre and amp; the Valhalla was very good, the Zeel slightly better in terms of dynamics, naturalness and refinement. the Zeel seemed more 'not there'.

these differences were small but clear. overall just a slightly better sense of music.

i would point out that i generally prefer single ended RCA's on the dart gear but did not have a long run of RCA's to compare.

i also prefer the Zeel between my Playback Designs and dart pre. in that case i've tried both my Valhalla and my Transparent Opus MM2 single ended RCA's. i would say that this comparison is closer than the long 7m run. the Zeel is very slightly better than the Opus at sounding 'not there'. of course; the Zeel is nearly free compared to the $15k 1.5m Opus. in any other cable comparison i've done the Opus MM2 smokes anything.

mikelavigne March 19, 2009 13:48

Mike,

Did you have a chance to compare the Zeel cable between the pre and pwr amp to sth else (Valhalla for example) ?

elberoth2 March 19, 2009 00:12

Mike,

Thanks for your prior response on mid priced MM Vs Mc, which correlates with my one experience...

I have slowly been upgrading my system over the years, and now have a pair of Revel f50a that I recently set up in a bi-amped mode using a 200wpc x 4 ch Theata Dreadnought. This made a huge diffence in bass response and control, much more so than any cable changes or other tweaks. ..I had it biwired before but did not notice any improvement and switched back to jumpers...fortunately they were true bi-wires with 2 separate runs of independent cables that I can now really put to use in a BI-amp configuration.

In any event, one thing I have now noticed with more resolution is the problem with source limitations. I listen to some rock/pop music that varies wildly in production quality. Unfornatualy as one gains resolution I can now hear how bad some of these recording are, and as a result can no longer listen to them on my system because some receding are too bright, thin & hard to enjoy now.

Do u have a tricks to override these inherent problems in the recording that are independant of system issues? Do EQ devices or other have any yeild ...any thoughts?

It also amazes me that some of these professional recording engineers produce some of these records to sound bright, thin and hard. Why would someone try and make it sound like this? Why not just copy so the recording tecniques used in classics like Dark Side of the Moon for this type of music??

grandizer33 March 18, 2009 22:33

Dgad,
agree with your arc tekst. i have had the Wally too with my former Schroder ref, great tool.
the earlier Schroders had the counterweights drilled in the center. i have experienced hard times as to tracking with the Ref & XCW. Frank started to modify the counterweights and drilled them offset, so much more weight got under the center of the arm. with that type counterweight the tracking was instantly fine.
the Schroder Ref is one of the most musical and magical arms i have ever had. the drawback is the fiddling with adjustments which keeps coming back at you. it is very sensitive to humidity and temperature. if you like to tune and twiddle that is ok, but in the end one may get tired of tweaking.
with the Airline there is extreme stability and it is truly rocksteady once adjusted* it may not have the *magic* of the Schroder Ref, but we could debate if that magic-in-the-air is on the mastertape or not. i loved it but i also think the Airline is much closer and truer to that same mastertape!
would love to own both arms at same TT:-)

to answer your question: yes my XCW was a great match with the Schroder Ref.
i would advise anyone to mention the arm to be used when ordering or tuning his VdHul.
with the Airline it is mandatory to mention.

* the Airline is very easy to set up but needs extremely accurate levelling of TT. forget about common household levellers. you need the best. i ended up buying a digital one $$$ which is self calibrating. The Airline in itself is a calibrating tool to any leveller. If the Airline does not work out buy a better leveller first.

tuboo March 16, 2009 16:25

I use the Wally Universal for setup. I love it. Anyhow, once you are following the arc you are following the arc and all is OK. At that point pivot to spindle doesn't matter as you have the correct arc. You can have any arc as long as the arc is correct. That is what is critical. Hence the SME adjustable pivot to spindle is still a matter of following the arc 100%. Setting up a tonearm in a sloted headshell varies the effective length anyhow. The idea is to get the correct arc. This makes the most sense. In the Phantom jig, getting it set perfectly w. overhang and pivot to spindle distance is a way to get it to follow the correct arc. But even the Phantom benefit from the Wally (same thing as the Mint).

I am waiting a little & might send the Colibri back in for more adjustment. Mind you it still sounds great but not as great as the XGW.

Tuboo, how was your Schroder at coping w. the energy from the Colibri. Mine w. the XGW just was not happy. Much better in the Phantom. But I didn't experiment much w. couterweights. Now I have the Titan i in the SQ and have 4 counterweights. Basically when you check for resonant frequency almost no vibration but it is centered right at 10 which is great.

Mike,

The resonant frequency being above 10 will affect bass & give you a fuzzy high end. This is due to the arm vibrating too much. Also the resonance will go into the bass frequencies on playback. That is why it is critical. There are so many parameters.

dgad March 16, 2009 15:19

"i played it on the resonate frequency tracks on the test record and it had no resonance at any frequency either lateral or vertical on the test record. can that be right?"

partly right.
we both have linear trackers and this is a very different topology opposed to pivoted arms.
the lateral resonance is not there since the arm is 'fixed' in it's 3D movement. the vertical resonance must still be seen but also here the linear tracking is very different in behaviour opposed to pivoted arm.
in general resonance below 10 hertz will be fine.
some phono preamps have subsonic filters and even a few have selection in highpass 10/15/20 hertz. great idea to offer this feature still.

i have had my XCW tuned to the Airline, before i got the Airline i had a Schroder Ref and my experience with the Airline is that it did not cope at all with the XCW in it's standard form. after the tuning (and after again some 100 hours..) they perform like a dream team.
it will be likely that my XCW will not cope with any pivot arm in this form vise versa.
well this was my experience anyway, the Airline is here to stay it is such an different game opposed to any pivot arm.
not for *sound* in particular, but the overall stability and the feeling of getting closer to the mastertape is very addictive. superb combo.

tuboo March 16, 2009 09:47

Hi Aaron,

no doubt slowing down my personal 'hurry, hurry' culture to use the Mint Lp is tedious. i want to listen right now. i can see how the third or fourth time i do it it will be easier and smoother.

regarding the pivot to spindle distance....."it does not matter a whit". the only thing that would change when the spindle to pivot point changes would be effective length and possibly effective mass. i would guess that assuming perfect alignment, VTF and VTA adjustment those very small changes would not be audible one way or another.

the only measurement that matters is the hitting the null points perfectly with perfect alignment. the pivot point can be at any point on the compass relative to the platter. this was pointed out to me by Steve Dobbins. when you really think about it why would where the pivot point be matter other than to get you in the approximate place where you would be able to adjust the cartridge for exact overhang. the wonderful thing for me about this issue is that it is dramatically easier to move the arm board a very tiny amount than a cartridge within a head shell. the arm board is large enough to take hold of and it's easy to have the screw 'just' loose enough to be able to nudge the arm board in tiny increments. then when i fully tighten the arm board does not 'shift' at all.....nice design.

best regards,

mikelavigne March 15, 2009 15:57

Hi Mike,

Your experience with the Mint LP protractor parallels my own. The more you sweat the details, and believe me you will sweat in the pursuit of perfection, the more rewarding will be the final result.

I do wonder if, by rotating the arm base to effect proper overhang, you are also changing the pivot-to-spindle distance of your arm and in doing so nullifying the extra accuracy which is inherent in the custom Mint LP protractor? Maybe I am missing something here since I know the SME arms have a sliding base mechanism for setting overhang.

Best Regards,
Aaron

drajreynolds March 15, 2009 03:27

Hi Mike
Long time no talk.
Your last post on the Mint Lp is a great lead for my new found .......

"Treasure Chest " .

It came with a Garrard 301 and a 3012 SME.
They came just as in the pics that I posted.

The cleaning process will start tomorrow. This is the first step before I get into the nitty gritty of things which I do not want to rush into.

Could can you send me some info/contacts on the Garrard 301 ?

Thanks Mike

rugyboogie March 15, 2009 02:49

below is something i just posted over on audioasylum which might be interesting. it's about a new cartridge alignment protractor i just purchased from Mint Lp. it's called the Best Tractor. it is custom made for any arm-tt combination.

Mint Lp

*************

i've used linear tracking arms exclusively for the last 7 years until just recently. prior to that i used a Basis 2500 with a Graham 2.2 arm....and with the Graham i used the Graham 'jig'. so i've never had to do a full set-up on a pivoted arm.

i now have a Garrard 301 with a Triplaner VII and have a Technics SP-10 Mk3 coming shortly (i'm still in the process of choosing an arm). i had a SP-10 Mk2 for a short time with a Schroeder arm. in any case; i had attempted to use a paper template to set-up both the Garrard/Triplaner and the SP-10/Schroeder but my results, while 'fun', were not stellar by any means. in fact; looking back now; my results for either table were dismal.

after doing some research i ordered the Mint Lp/Best Tractor from Yip. it arrived on Thursday; but Thursday night i went to an audio club meeting and last night i went to a concert; so i had only been able to briefly look at it and play with it a little.

early this morning i started in earnst to do a proper set-up of my vdH Colibri XPP .3mv output on the Garrard/Triplaner. the instructions are excellent; i read thru them a few times, the pictures clear up any potential confusion one might have. i started out by checking to make sure the Garrard was level, that the VTF was in mid-range for the Colibri, and that azimuth was 'close'.

i had ordered the extra 'Peak Lupe 10X No.1961' magnifier; which turned out to be a good idea for an extra $10.

i placed the template on the Garrard in approximately the correct spot and lowered the stylus onto the surface. i adjusted the template so the stylus was exactly on top of the line at the outer edge of the platter, then moved the stylus to the inside near the spindle. it was off about 1/4"; the 10X magifier really helped my 57 year old eyes see this easily. i then loosened the Colibri and attempted to slide it backward.

i was having trouble adjusting the Colibri rear-ward in tiny increments. it seemed like when i would try to tighten the cartridge screws it would skew the cartridge no matter how hard i held it. it's possible that either the head shell slots were too narrow or the Colibri threads were too wide; but for whatever reason i could not tighten the screws and keep the cartridge body lined up. i tried using some plastic washers, i also took the cartridge off and cleaned up the surfaces as best i could. i could only keep the Colibri lined up properly at the front end of the head slots.

here the design of the Dobbins plinth came to the rescue. it was very easy to loosen the arm board set screw and minutely rotate the whole arm board to the exact point i wanted. i was able to quickly dial in the precise overhang.

next i set the stylus in the crosshairs for alignment and followed the instructions for aligning the canteliver. this was actually quite easy and fairly quick. then i went back to check the overhang and found that i was off by the tinyest bit. by this time i had only a few minutes before i had to leave. so i threw on an Lp.

huge positive difference. everything was cleaned up. much more refined, better precision and naturalness, any edgyness and raspyness in the highs were gone. more clarity and flow.

wow.

any prior comments i have made regarding the Garrard/Triplaner will need to be dramatically amended.

and this was my first effort with Yip's template. i know that next time i'll be better.

i've not used the Wally or other top level alignment tools. so i cannot compare this to any other.

i'm sold.

***********

mikelavigne March 15, 2009 00:36

Dgad,

sorry for the delay in my response. to be honest; i have always been a bit uneducated on the whole resonate frequency--arm/cartridge matching issue. as a result of your post i did some research, pulled out my test records, and tried to learn enough to respond intellegently.

well; i still am not totally clear and confident that i'm yet all the way on top of it.

i think that Colibri's in general are more sensitive to set-up parameters. my two new ones sure seem to be.

as i mentioned; i did own an XGW myself until about 6 months ago; it was suppose to be a .65mv output. as i recall that seemed about right.

my new XCP HO has a long cantelever compared to my XPP which has a short cantelever. the longer XCP (on the Rockport) seems a bit more edgy. i played it on the resonate frequency tracks on the test record and it had no resonance at any frequency either lateral or vertical on the test record. can that be right?

mikelavigne March 15, 2009 00:28

Dgad,
The first 50 hours with any type Colibri is indeed a struggle.. but resonance around 15 Hz is too high.
with my former Schroder arms the resonance got down much lower when the counterweight was modified to offset type in which the mass went down opposed to the center of the armtube.
it is very tempting to go adjusting and tweaking in the early stage to cope with all sorts of problems like tracking etc. after some 100 hours everything will settle down very nicely..
yess XGW is something special, i would not part with it anytime.
keep em spinning.

tuboo March 08, 2009 21:20

Mike,

Got my 2nd VdH Colibri. Not sure what to think. It is speced at 0.28mV but has an output of honestly 0.65mV (from listening). It is a XGP. I find it to be so stiff in the suspension that it is frustrating. The XGW is absolutely wonderful. With the longer cantilver, that is not even straight. The new XGP is with the shorter cantilever which is perfectly straight. I found the highs a bit bright & bass slugish. Measured the resonant frequency at about 15 Hz. Way too high. Confirmed what I was hearing. I then mass loaded it a lot. It helped a little. Got it to about 14 Hz. I am at a total loss. I probably will send it back for further adjustment. I could try it in a high mass arm But it does have the wonderful dynamics and detail. But the new one does not have the clarity in the bass or the smoothness of XGW. I thought I could get a little more w. the XGP. Time will tell.

dgad March 07, 2009 20:52

a few posts above i mention that i have been playing with the dampning trough on the Rockport. this is a resonance control device for the linear tracking arm on the Rockport.....which is used to 'tune' the cartridge to sound natural. most high quality arms have provisions for this resonance control in one way or another.

anyway; on the Rockport there is a small 'blade' attached to the underside of the arm which 'swims' through the trough just 'touching' the surface of the silicone as the arm traverses from beginning to the end of the record. one can add or subtract silicone to increase of decrease the level of dampning. as this trough is directly underneath the arm shaft you cannot see it and tell how deep the silicone is.

over the last year or two i had noticed a very very slow change in the character of the Rockport; it had somehow been getting less natural and more lean and even edgy. until the last few days i had assumed it was a cartridge or system issue.

i have 2 new vdH Colibri cartridges. an XCP HO .45mv and a XPP .3mv. i have the XCP on the Rockport and the XPP on the Garrard. these cartridges are not identical sounding but they are definitely similar sounding. i had just had the XCP on the Garrard and moved it to the Rockport. then installed the XPP on the Garrard. over a few days i compared many Lps on both. there was definitely something not quite right on the Rockport. i tried multiple VTA's and VTF's and various combinations thereof.

then it struck me. i had not checked the silicone level on the Rockport for 6 years. i had pretty much always had a vdH Colibri on the Rockport. could the silicone level have dropped?

it's a bit tricky and messy; but i added some silicone; much better. i listened all night. definitely better. but was it right on? 2 nights ago i added some more. hummmmm. different; maybe too slugish? i listened some more. then last night i took some q-tips and removed some silicone....made a mess.

better. i removed a bit more......Ahhhhhhhhh. just right.

last night i listened until 2am this morning. better than ever. this vdH Colibri now has the tone and body of my Koetsu yet is still explosive and alive.

i am so dumb. why do i always seem to have to relearn the basics?

my mind is spinning a bit now. would i have ventured down this RTR and new tt path if i had been on top of this issue all along?

mikelavigne March 07, 2009 16:54

hi Dave,

yes; my 2-25-09 post above refers to my impressions of the software upgrade. this was the 'first' version of the upgrade. jtinn's been after me to redo it with the newer version but i've not yet done it.....i've not had any issues with the first version.....and i've been listening to lots of redbook as it all sounds really really good. there is simply no sense that it is digital.....amazing.

mikelavigne March 07, 2009 16:16

Mike, have you posted an impression of the MPS-5's latest firmware update? At first, it had a bug, but Andreas jumped right on it and now it's sounding even more natural.

Dave

dcstep March 07, 2009 04:21