System edit. I've reduced my system to its primary components and I've removed my analogue components.
I gave my TT, my vinyl, a receiver and monitor speakers to my granddaughter and her husband, and by doing so have given new life to a future audiophile. An additional gift was a pair of Sonic Frontiers 160 wt mono tube amps which he has no present use for but is happily dreaming about. I really feel great about not selling or alternatively having to give my albums to a charity. I'm really!!!!! happy today.
Joe, there is no standby light that I'm aware of. Interestingly, even when it has been in 'standby' for a while, it requires some warm up time to reach its optimum performance, so I'm not sure how much leaving it in standby mode actually improves its performance. But just to hedge my bet I leave it on 24/7. I agree it is an excellent unit.
System edited: System Overhaul. New - Primaluna Dialogue integrated amps replaced Cayin amps which failed and could not be repaired due to lack of parts/support from distributor or manufacturer. Actually the Dialogues are superior anyway. Added the Marantz SACD CDP. A major improvement in dynamics in both SACD and RB.
System's changed some since I last posted on it. FWIW it is now the Marantz SA11S3, a Wadia 302, and a Raysonic 128, into a Cayin A100T integrated amp, driving the Silverline Boleros.
Thanks for reminding me - sooner or later I'll get the real job done and post everything, maybe even pictures. :-)
System edited: Dug this old Mesa Baron out of the closet. With a tube and IC change it matches well with my Pre-amp. I'm now considering how to get better resolution from the pre-amp without giving up its tonal signature and dynamics', i.e. get better resolution.
System edited: I inherrited an unused Denon TT so before I blessed it on Goodwill I thought I'd set it up and listen to it using my ARC SP10 as a phono stage. I was surprised by its competetence but was unimpressed with the cartridge so I dropped in my Mico Benz Glider and, while not approaching SOTA in any way it was nice enough to leave up and occasionally listen to old LP's and give me something to play with (the phono stage) in my spare time. Good enuf for now though and I occaasionally like those old LP's (and I'm amazed to see what folks ask for these in the for sale section. I'm Rich!)
But, what evolved was totally unexpected. I'd been using the Raysonic and Wadia direct into the Cayin Integrated or through a different pre-amp (Primaluna 3) to good results but unfortunately, although the soundstaging and specificity of image, including depth, was excellent direct into the Cayin, or smooth with the Primaluna, it was not as 'natural' as I would have liked it to be. In other words when listening to music my attention was often drawn to the audio effects more so than the music (wow, what great depth of image, so specific! etc etc).
Out of curiosity I re-installed my BAT DK5 into the SP10, and connected the SP10 direct to the amp. This has taken me to a level of appreciation that leaves me sitting in the chair thinking, rhetorically I believe (and hope), now how could I improve on that.
Technically speaking, I could have said 'improve resolution - the ultimate depth of soundstage could be slightly better'. BUT the sound was so natural, warm w/o dullness, resolved/transparent with out brightness, and engaging, and nothing detracting from the soundstage effect, that I answered my rhetorical question - nothing!
So I'm in hog heaven, I think. :-) For now at least.
FWIW one of the really important changes I noted was the dynamics obtained from using the SP10 the degree of which was absent from either the connection of sources to the amps passive line stage or thru the Primaluna.
System edited: System edit. Just noticed I didn't include my PL3 tube pre-amp with which I drive the Cayin. I do not use the Cayin as an integrated. Sounds much better connected direct to a pre-amp I think.
System edited: System edit - lots of stuff put back in the closet for a rainy day. I'm now down to the essentials and enjoying the music. I'll stick around the forum to help folks when I can but I'm done now with my stuff.
System edited: Replaced my Accuphase 101 with a 100T. Much better bass and a little better reception. Re-introduced my old CAL digital set - love it playing jazz CD's and some solo piano recordings. More forward than other digital stuff. Re-introduced my old BAT CDP which is now very synergistic with my re-tubed and greatly re-thought out Cayin A100T. I now have an amp with a triode output stage option that has real bass balls, rich midrange and some sparkle. Lots of 3 dimensional imaging as well which did not exist as previously configured. This is fun. I'm looking at my old analogue stuff and having a fantasy about what I could do with them. :-)
Elviukai, I spent over 20 years trying to find speakers that provided flat frequency response, some even that were +/- 2db accross the spectrum and I've driven them with some fine and complimentary amps, both SS and tubed. The list of speakers and amps is long.
I had a lot of fun, learned a lot, spent a lot of money, yet never reached a point where I could just listen thru all of the audio effects and hear just the musical content.
I too value tonality and soundstage specificity. I think where we part is I no longer worship flat frequency response as the main attribute of sound reproduction as I have in the past, and believe there are other things far more important (to me) EVEN if they are nothing more than, thru component synergy, achieving a sound that pleasures my own (or someone else's) ears.
BTW, FWIW, whether the Bolero's have a 10db dip, or not, might depend on whether you are measuring on axis, 15 degrees off azis, or 30 degrees off axis, and even then compared to what reference frequency. I think in actual use the dip is more like 6db if you accept measurements made in an anechoic chamber. I have come to believe, and have too often experienced, that some speakers which measure flat actually produce an un-natural sound. Unfortunately this is often aggrevated by the flood of electronic's manufacturers who were eager to enhance the appearance of resolution and staging by increasing the FR levels in the upper mids and highs.
We do agree on one thing though, and it is something about these speakers that is outstanding even if you don't like the balance, the Esotar tweeter is IMHO as good as I have ever heard.
I think it may be unfortunate that you have not actually heard them and seem to have based your opinion/critique on published tests and specs (which may not even be current).
I hope you have been successful in achieving your goals in setting up your system as I have.
"Very distant perspective without any hint of harshness"
I can see why some folks might feel that way, especially those accoustomed to horns. And I do believe there is a slight upper mid-range dip (ala the famous BBC dip). But the dip does not produce a 'very' distant prospective (compared to other panel and box speakers I have) and there is no sense of HF roll off, in fact what impresses me most about these speakers is that they have a very high level of resolution which is obtained with no listening fatigue what so ever. I read all that was available before I bought them, listened to them at Silverlines, but was still not prepared for their excellence in my home. My listening room is small to medium sized (13x19x9) so I sit fairly close to the speakers to minimize room reflections effects where other flat FR speakers become very problematic and component selection becomes critical. If I had a really large room I might feel differently.
I think if your core priority is listening to music, especially unamplified music, these speakers should not be missed. But speaking of 'sound', that level of resolution really is addictive. :-)
System edited: I think I've exhausted all of the permutations of equipment I have on hand. I now have two systems preceding the same speakers. One for casual long term daily use, the Wadia/Primaluna 3/5, and one for a somewhat more romantic (and dynamic) sound, the Cayin and Raysonic. If the stock market ever comes back I think about a replacement for the PL amp, but I'm sure done for now.
Samhar, I'm eliminating anything that induces me make choices. Thats why I put the Cayin/Raysonic away. Every time I put on a CD I'd have to decide whether it would sound best in upsampling or 16bit, or I'd have to listen in triode or pentode or some combo of both. Nothing wrong with either or the combo actually. If it was the best I could do with my budget I could be happy. Now for allday/everyday I enjoy my cheapo PL1 with my Accuphase tuner and my Wadia CDP. For special listening I go to my BAT and PL3 and PL5. Life is so much simpler now and I listen to more music and less 'audio'. I just mailed back my 'audiophile membership card'! :-)
System edited: System changes - downsizing and eliminating analogue set up. Removed ARC SP10 Pre-amp, Raysonic 128 CDP, Cayin Amp, Oracle TT, etc. Just digital left.
Don't know about the Bolero's being driven by a SET amp but Alan has designed one and was proud of its compatibility with the Bolero. I didn't listen to it.
I've used 4 different amps (so far) with these speakers. The amps all seem to be true to their intrinsic nature (based on my experience with them and other speakers). I get very respectible bass with some 30w Cary mono amps, and the Cayin. My PL amp never had really deep bass before or now, but ws otherwise fine.
The SFM's do have big bass balls and extended highs! I had lots of fun listening to RR's Fanfare for the Common Man (Copland) which has great dynamics including explosive bass drums and brass. Very 'audiophile approved' sound, I think! In fact it's hard to believe a small speaker could do that piece justice, even in my small room. Real impact!
FWIW, I've never heard a speaker that sufferred from too much current and I've always found I preferred 4ohm taps (even with speakers with an 8 ohm nominal impedence rating). Interestingly those old SFM's even have 2ohm tap capabilities though I've never reconfigured it to get there.
Other Silverlines may not be as easy to drive, I think, and I've often wondered it this has much to do with driver choice and cross over points. The Bolero's are very different from the Sonata's and LaFolias in that respect.
Hi Mapman, Thanks for your recommendations. I'm not into high speed yet and local FM ain't what it used to be in my area. :-(
I agree with you about John Potis' reviews. I trust his sonic description of products, if not always share his priorities. Interesting he left 6moons. I wonder if that had anything to do with his candor relative to some of their advertiser's products.
I've never heard the Ohm 5's, only the original Ohm F's, a very nice sounding speaker I thought. Couldn't afford it or the power it took to drive it back then.
Yeh, the Boleros are nice. I've had them a year now and I've yet to buy anything new to drive them. A first for me. New speakers always seemed to require a parade of amps (etc) to find something that fit and brought out their best. Sometimes I think the Boleros were designed specifically to match my sensitivities. I can easily hear all of what is going on before them with different stuff, it just seems that I have so many viable alternatives which didn't previous work with other sources/amps. I've been having fun working thru all of the permutations with stuff I already own and have 3 very viable set ups, all different, but whereas in the past I was lucky to come close to getting one set up. But, folks, thay ain't dull! :-) Rave ends!
System edited: Reintroduced vinyl to my CD based system (too many LP's around to ignore) and simplified the component chain. I listen to mainly classical and jazz and if nothing ever changes in this system I could be very happy. BTW, the vinyl sounds better than I remembered, and thats with a very modest TT/Arm and Grado cartridge. Go figure.
System edited: I've removed the Primaluna Three and am now driving the mono amps direct with the Wadia. Change in input tubes in the anps made all the difference between sounding 'driven/overly dynamic' to very dynamic yet retaining a sense of warmth throughout the frequency response. Using oldstock Tesla 6922's and SED 6550's. I'm going to take a break now and just enjoy.
System edited: Well this is fun! I tired of the subwoofer experiment and replaced the Primaluna 5 with a pair of mono amps out of my closet with real balls (but no bloat). I think the reason that the PL5 sounded more dimensional was the low end, but I've noticed that the highs are a tad soft - I've not yet figured out if it is a tube selection issue or if I should be trying different pre-amps. Love the Boleros. This is one experiment that is really fun! No frustrations at all (yet). Any suggestions?
I now have two sets of electronics available to drive my Silverlines (my absolutely best every purchase of anything!!!!). The first set consists of a Wadia 302, Primaluna 3/5 combo, and, get ready for this, a newly introduced cheapo (relatively) sub. I use SED KT88's in the amp.
Until a couple of weeks ago (sans sub) this was pretty good but the bass was a bit soft, not well defined. I chalked it up to a big null in the 40/50 hz zone. So just for fun I bought a cheapo sub with a plate amp that had a one band parametric equalizer. I set the low pass filter at 50hz and brought the level up to match them mains output at 60hz. I then used the equalizer to take off a 6db rise at 32hz. Only took me about 18 hours using test disc, a SPL meter, and lots of CD's and critical listening to find the magical point.
Just amazing result. Deep, tight, powerful bass, improved imaging (especially depth), excellent detail reproduction thru the mids and highs, never in your face. The only down side for me was that the audiophile qualities were so good that I found them impossible to ignore when multi-tasking like reading, I'd keep putting the book down to listen to the 'audiopile' effects, but not necessarily the musical content.
Enter the Cayin A100T (again with SED KT88's) and the Raysonic 128. This combo has a warmer and deeper bass/lower mid-range (not tight or particularily well defined) and a very 'musical' mid/upper mid-range. Don't need no stinking sub woofer with this amp. Probably a classically romantic tube sound. I could never get the balance I wanted from the sub with the Cayin. This set up speaks with one voice (so to speak) and does not draw attention to itself. I can really get into musical content using it.
I'd hate to have to part with either system but I think I could easily improve on the Primaluna/Wadia/sub system if I were willing to chase the money after it.
But without my audiophile hat on I don't rally know how I could improve on the Cayin/Raysonic/Silverline combo.
If I had to select just one I'd probably keep the simplist one and just forget about audiophilia but I won't because bottom line I enjoy the hobby (on a budget).
To answer your question re Primaluna v Cayin, I think they are both excellent values, but as with everything else they show their magic with proper matching, etc.
Re photos....I'm making progress, I finally got a digital camera. Now all I have to figure out is how to get it onto my computer and then how to get it up onto A-Gon. Frankly looking at some of the systems up I'm kind of embarassed to post them. One of these days.......:-)
System edited: I was never able to get all that I wanted out of the Tylers in my room with tubed electronics so I started over, so to speak, with new Silverline Bolero's. After about 80 hours run in I started experimenting with amps and tubes I had on hand. The thing I had the least hope for, from past experience, was using the Primaluna 3/5 combo with EL34 tubes. Just wonderful - seems to do everything I want and allows me to focus on the music - its just so 'natural'. Am I happy? Oh yeh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now if I can just resist trying out 'better' electronics.
System edited: System edit - results of system symplification will, hopefully allow me to focus more on the music playing than 'how' it is playing. :-)
System edited: System modified by addition of new Cayin A100T integrated amp. An excellent addition I think. I'm having a difficult time fantasizing about what I could do to improve my system within my financial constraints. :-)
System edit and thanks to Ethanh for his comments. I am really enjoying this latest, and hopefully last iteration/combination of components for a long time. I think the sum of the components exceeds the single contribution of any one. For the first time in years I'm no longer evaluating components, I'm just listening to music. Hurray!
Skuras, I'm still using it and find it interesting how it interfaces with different amps, or at lest so it seems. FWIW I've had it connected to one ss and 4 different tube amps. In comparison to my SP10, it is not dry in the mid range and perhaps not quite as extended or revealing, not necessarily a bad thing because getting the best out of an SP10 is not a walk in the park, either matching it with an amp or keeping it in tybes.
For a point of reference I've acquired a Wadia 302 CDP and a pair of small pp tube amps in the past few months and I've been setting up all kinds of combos to see what is the best way to drive the Wadia. Wadia sez direct. The consensus of Wadia owners and the reviewer of this CDP think you should use a pre-amp.
Well after trying 4 combos of tube amps/pre amp (16 different combos) plus CDP direct these are my conclusions (and in this context you can draw you conclusions about my feeling about the PL 3).
1) The Wadia direct into an 80wt pp tube amp with KT88's sounded outstanding - the best sound I have had in my house to date. Dynamic, smooth, extended, detailed, never harsh. In fact it was one of the first times that I have felt that I did not have a volume limitation in my smallish room. I listened loud and without any fatigue factor!
2) My BAT DK5 thru the PL3 to a pair of Cary CAD50M MkII's with 6550C's was a close but clearly a 2nd choice. Dynamic's and resolution suffered just a tad, but if you didn't do an A/B I doubt you'd know. It was still great sound, the DK 5 has never sounded better in the 7 years I've owned it.
The PL3 is well built, dead quiet, and responsive to tube rolling but tube rolling is not required - the EH's it comes with (I assume) are quite good (although I'm using some new production EI's for smoother mids and highs). I'm sure there are better, more neutral, tube amps out there to be had and the PL3 could use a bit more flexibility like a balance control, mute, and tape loop, but for the money involved I'm very! happy with it.
Hope that helps a bit..If you have more questions feel free to ask (or send me an E-Mail).
Stltrains - noted your post on your new Tylers. I'm glad they have worked out for you. I agree with your assessment regarding imaging, etc. Its quite interesting how revealing these speakers can be without being in your face about it as so many others are.
I also bought mine without an audition and some apprehension (especially during breakin - all posted on the 'Gon) but they worked out fine.
I have the 1 piece Linbrook Signature Systems - they can sound quite nice with a 40 watt tube amp but to get that last half octave of bass you really need something with a bit more balls than my PL5, my SFM 160's have proved that point. I've listened briefly with some SS amps but not with any real satisfaction. I've never tried any of the new amp designs, such as your ref9SE's.
If you ever want to compare notes drop me an e-mail. Enjoy.....
System edited: Changes in my system made in the last year and a half. The addition of a Wadia 302 and Primaluna Prologue 3/5 have had a really meaningful impact on my second set of electronics which I use to drive my Tylers. Love having the different electronic combos. That way I can fret more about which music sounds best on which front end, and not so much on equipment and tweeks. :-)
Jh2os, Haven't tried the BAT with the Prologue. The BAT is in my main system and the Prologue is set up separately with the Cal Alpha and Delta combo and a tuner. That said, I can't imagine a down side that couldn't be compensated for by some tube changes. I'm quite fond of the BAT. I've had it almost 7 years. Its not the upgraded model (mine still has HDCD). All I've done is have the transport/laser system worked on once at the five year point. BAT is very customer oriented. Quick turn around time. One of the reasons that I have not upgraded to the 24/96 (24/196?) version is the loss of HDCD, and the SE version because of the use of the 6H30 tube restricts the ability to experiment with different tubes.
Thanks, Kehut. The Quads are 63 USA monitors. Love the speakers but the compression of dynamic range and loudness issues get to me after a while. One of the huge benefits of getting a good synergistic system together is you can listen loud without any fatigue (except for the nag to "turn it down". :-)
System edited: I recently replaced my Paragon Jubalee Jems with the Tylers. Mainly for room asthetics but the Tylers have a better bass response in my room and give up a little bit of resolution. I haven't sold the Paragons though, they sit next to my Quads in the closet. :-) The Tylers present a large soundstage at a lower volume level. All in all a good trade off. I also added the Primaluna P1 for casual listening to save having to turn on all the tubes in my main system. Actually it sounds quite good with the Tylers and doesn't lack for power or good tone. I use it with the Cal Alpha Dac. Nice warm spacious sound.
System edited: Recently retired my Perreaux Tuner due to lack of sensitivity in my remote area (even with a directional antenna). Acquired a vintage Accuphase T101 - this is a great tuner and greatly improved on the Perreaux's ability to bring in distant stations. Sonically it's excellent as well, although I think the Perreaux's a bit smoother and more tube like in its presentation.
