Spirit,
No worries and I appreciate your insight regarding the progression of your beautiful system. I'm clearly an admirer of SET amplifiers. It has been rewarding to read about you and others here who ventured into the SET genre and found absolute musical/sonic bliss. Isn't the entire point of High End audio to get quality products that improved our home listening experience? So when you and others express their pure joy with discovering SET it makes me happy for all of you.Spirit the revealing nature you noted is the result of improved transparency of the simpler circuit SET(if build to a high standard). The beauty is that with this increased revealing nature the sound remains natural and doesn't drift into the analytical, that's special and unique.
Charles,

charles1dad March 22, 2015 11:19

Charles, I'm going to stop hogging your thread! Just to say that I'm getting a balance of involvement and analysis that I really thought wasn't possible. That's to say the system w/the Nats is so revealing that small changes in cart VTF/spkr toe-in etc are instantly noticeable as good or bad. But this is never at the expense of involvement so that as I continue to dial things in, the endorphin levels keep rising.

spiritofmusic March 22, 2015 10:23

Spirit,
I'm glad the SET amplifier experience turned out so satisfying for you. I know the profound improvement they made in my listening to music. It is hard to predict the outcome for another individual however. In your case it seems you have hit the musical jackpot.
Charles,

charles1dad March 22, 2015 02:38

Certainly has Charles. And again my thanx to you for reeling me in when I nibbled at the SET bait some 24 months ago. The Nats are right up there w/the 5x pricier Koda setup I auditioned 12 months ago. This is no mean feat, w/the Koda feted in uber audiophile Asian circles where money is no object. The Nats have the beating of the Koda w/greater grip and bass control, so even more amazing.
Fascinatingly, at the exalted level of communication I'm achieving, ANY changes good or bad to my system are instantly perceivable e.g. +/-0.01g vtf, small degrees altering toeing in/out of spkrs, a-b comparisons of cables, etc. I often in the past really found changes hard to decide on, but now, no ambiguity.
God, I'm turning into a borderline sad reviewer type! LOL!

spiritofmusic March 22, 2015 02:16

Spirit,
I understand that kind of description. When it's that realistic you know you've made the right choices. It's obvious this latest acquisition has raised the vital emotional connection, way to go.
Charles,

charles1dad March 22, 2015 00:04

Good to hear that Charles. Tbh, there wasn't really a choice since I bought ex-demo, and it's the new, current models that run the GM70s. I have to say the amps are totally opening up, and I am speechless w/what I'm hearing. I have no fears I'm losing anything w/the NOS '48 GE 211s. So much so I'm going to purchase a spare set of quad matched bottles.
Just listening to Ornette Coleman's "New York is Now" and "Love Call", and I'm knocking at the door of the studio. I can literally smell the cigarette smoke LOL!!!

spiritofmusic March 21, 2015 23:54

Spirit,
I honestly believe you are better off with the 211 tube than the GM70 in terms of SQ.

charles1dad March 21, 2015 20:32

That's right Charles. GM70s replace 211s on current models of SE2SEs, not for SQ reasons, but because of the short supply of NOS 211s.

spiritofmusic March 21, 2015 18:53

Jeff,
The model Spirit has now uses the Russian GM70 in place of the 211. Jeff what speaker is A.J. driving with that exotic high powered SET?

charles1dad March 20, 2015 15:52

Spirit, I'm not sure what NAT amp you have. I don't see a 211 amp on their website. A.J. Conti had the Transmitter Amp which is One QB5/1750 tube at 120 watts.

jwm March 20, 2015 14:43

Jwm, pretty hot, as you'd expect a quad of 211s to! The transformers are pretty warm too, all 4 of them, and this is a consequence of driving my pretty big space. Good thing the Zu's are 101dB/m eff!
I'm not a Basis owner, but it's enlightening to know Nat is not a total secret, and is the choice of such an eminent engineer as AJ Conti.
I have an audio buddy who's journey is to replicate the space and power of live orchestral w/mch and dsp/optimised subwoofers. A noble aim.
For me the Holy Grail is to get close to solidity of sound and energy of real instruments/voices live in situations like jazz clubs, and even buskers at subway stations.
My journey started w/balanced power to aid dynamics and low noise, then tone dense, x'overless horn-like eff Zu spkrs to max out tone, then Audion SETS to give me texture and presence, then Entreq grounding, which like your Troy, helps w/spatial cues and image stability, and finally the Nat SETs which saturate the sound to bring the substance of real instruments/voices ever more real, and w/no time smear that lesser tubes can fail at.
I think I'm getting there, the Nats being a massive step fwd twds tangibility.
Solid state amplification recedes ever further into the past...

spiritofmusic March 20, 2015 11:44

Spirit,
I know the very high regard Audion owners have for their amplifiers(including you). For you to find the NAT Audio to be a 'clear step' above says a lot about its excellent match with your system. I think that NAT makes their own transformers in house. They seem like components I'd really enjoy based on your description of their tonal balance and presentation. Spirit I believe what probably hurts them is that they are Eastern European (Serbia I think) that bothers some people, I wouldn't care, I'll take the full bodied natural sound every time. They apparently don't subscribe to the lean, lightweight 'low calorie' character that's has become common place these days.
Charles,

charles1dad March 20, 2015 10:30

Spirit great move. A. J. Conti of Basis audio has the NAT amps and swears by them. How hot does that tube get?

jwm March 20, 2015 03:40

Spirit,
Congratulations ! I have a gut feeling the NAT components were something exceptional, your reaction confirms this. Full and rich like live music presents, I understand. The thing about live music that it's always stood out for me consistently is the warmth, color saturation and fullness that you hear from live instruments. Your system must sound gorgeous and emotional. You have moved in the right direction and won't look back. The current direction for sound reproduction seems to have moved to a leaner and lighter type of sound in the name of accuracy, to me this moves away from what live music sounds like in my opinion . I believe your current system will keep you very happy for many years to come.
Charles,

charles1dad March 20, 2015 02:16

Charles, I've dropped ten big ones (£s not $s) on a suite of ex demo Nat Audio amps, the Utopia 2-box tube line stage, and SE2SE 211 SET monos, at 75W/ch. Tubes are NOS 1948 GE 211s.
Much as I loved the Audions (Black Shadow 845s and Quattro dual mono line stage), they were a little lean thru the mids into the bass, and a tad underpowered at 25W/ch in my 9000 ft*3 volume space. But beyond criticism otherwise, and I'll always be fond of them as my first foray into the world of SETs.
But the Nats take things up a level or too, more grip and control as a result of the greater power output and bigger, beefier transformers (the Black Shadow ones always seemed a little insubstantial).
Most critically I'm getting an amazing saturation of tone from mids into bass, which is making for more compelling, immersive listening, replicating the sound of live music and real instruments more convincingly and w/the fantastic lack of time smear, temporal cues are so much more evident that the illusion of reality comes ever more into focus.
Solid state amplification seems like such a distant memory now...

spiritofmusic March 20, 2015 00:26

I understand Charles your preferences which are mine also. I've also learned that focus affects timing of the music. More focus adds realism and more emotion.

himiguel March 19, 2015 17:50

Miguel,
Yes, in regards to focus and imaging, they improved. I don't usually talk about those factors admittedly. They are secondary for me(but important to many people I know). Good quality components will most often do those things well. What matters more to me(and seemingly more elusive) is getting the true/natural tonality/timbre, musical dynamic ebb and flow. This is what allows or preserves the emotion and involvement IMO.

charles1dad March 19, 2015 16:47

Hi Charles, did focus and pin point imaging improve with the Apprentice? Your comparison was vs the Starsound AP1.5 brass spikes? Thanks for the feedback.

himiguel March 19, 2015 16:28

Hello Miguel,
I have described this before some time ago. The gist of it is all of the Troy's attributes are increased by a legitimate 20%. I use percentage as I think it's an effective way to convey scale or proportions. Natural tone/timbre, harmonics,presence factor and sense of convincing realism are what the Troy added to my system. Very impressive for me. Placing it on the Apprentice improves it by that significant 20% margin. Significant because that's in addition to the high baseline performance of the TROY'S 'stock' feet. these two products combined are a wonderful match in my opinion.

charles1dad March 19, 2015 15:45

Charles, can you share your experience using the Apprentice platform under the Troy. Thanks

himiguel March 19, 2015 03:55

Great. Thanks for the input.

cal3713 March 17, 2015 21:45

Cal,
I have heard the KR XLS in my system thanks to a generously loaned pair. It is a very nice sounding tube. Overall it is a warmer and a bit dark in comparison to the EML . The EM L tube in my system and amplifier is more open, transparent and lively sounding yet very organic. I'm sure this is most likely just system dependent as both tubes are very good just with different characters. I definitely found the EML to be the better fit sonically in my system,as always this comes down to a synergy issue.

charles1dad March 17, 2015 08:01

Hey Charles et al. Anyone have opinions on the KR Audio 300b XLS and how they compare to the EML XLS?

cal3713 March 17, 2015 04:28

Thanks. They offer a kit in Japan and I would love to build one with Duelund or Jupiter output caps. I emailed them again and we will see. They sell for $1600 as a kit. The web page is in English so perhaps I have a chance!

grannyring March 17, 2015 01:37

Bill I wish you good luck, the kit is just a bargain at that price. He offers the option of Op amps in his kit but he avoids them at all cost(due to their high use of NFB) in his fully built DAC. He does not like or use NFB but gives kit builders the choice.

charles1dad March 17, 2015 01:09