The audio system fine tuning I`ve been doing the past year has been very worthwhile.The core components have responded well.I`m going to wrap up this process by adding the Tripoint Troy MK II that I was fortunate enough to fine used(these rare to find used).The Troy seems like 'the real deal product' and comments by owners of it are exceptionally enthusiastic.

The grounding principle role in reducing noise makes instrinsic sense to me and is apparently quite effective in actual use.I hope the Troy will be the icing on what has developed into a very nice cake. The biggest selling point for me is that universally it`s described as natural in its character and system influence. Natural is the highest compliment a audio component or system can be given in my opinion. I should have it in a week or so and I`m eager to see what it does compared to the other sucessful fine tuning steps I`ve taken.
Charles,

charles1dad September 04, 2013 21:05

Sal,
Good point, the only drawback with the CTI cable is the 'very snug' fit.It`s especially difficult to pull out of the socket on the Yamamoto DAC. Fortunnately I don`t have to do that often. The Ocellia have a nice firm fit but are much easier to remove.

I`ll say this Sal, both of these cables are immersed in the natural sound camp as opposed to audiophile hifi camp(if you know what I mean).There`s certainly something to the magnetic aspect of the HF CTI series as they do seem to present a very low noise floor.

"Bobby Broom Plays Monk"
Doug Raney, "You Go To My Head"
Mark Whitfield "Finger Painting"
I think you`ll really like these.
Charles,

charles1dad September 02, 2013 21:29

Thanks for reply re Ocellia. I do have one other question as it turns out. Are the RCA plugs difficult to insert or remove? The ones on the CT-1 are so tight that I was seriously afraid I would damage the jacks on my equipment when I tried to unplug them. That's a serious problem for me because I do change my equipment from time to time.

Thanks for the guitar recommendations. I am familiar with several of them from hearing them on the radio but I don't have any recordings.

salectric September 02, 2013 20:23

Sal,
I read your system page I realized you are into jazz guitar also. Have you listened to folks like Bobby Broom,Doug Raney,Jimmy Ponder,Mark Whitfield or Royce Campbell?These guys play some of the most beautiful chords,I love the way jazz guitarists play chords.
Charles,

charles1dad September 02, 2013 18:42

Hi Sal,
I`ve not directly compared the two cables and have only heard the HF CTI-U as a digital cable, I find it fabulous in my system. I have no reason to doubt the analog IC and speaker cables would be any different.It is very natural,dynamic,lively and has excellent resolution in my system. I`m glad I bought the digital cable,worth every penny I spent.

Ocellia is a small specialty company in Montreal(moved from France a few years ago). I just love this cable, it is sooo natural and is able to present a very live like vibe/character to music in my system.It`s strange to describe but it has a sense of ease and relaxed musical flow yet the dynamics and physical presence factor is quite apparent. You hear the nuance and subtle details but it`s the polar opposite of an analytical-clinical presentation,no hifi here,all natural/organic.

Sal given the make up of your system I`d have to believe that either of these two cables would be a superb choice.I doubt you`ll find the Ocellia for loan,they have a small presence in this country(a shame).The HF CT1 cables could be the better cable(they take some time to fully burn in) but I`m happy with the Ocellia loom,the sound is beautiful.
Charles,

charles1dad September 02, 2013 17:15

Jeff,
I appreciate your comments very much.
That was a really fine show saturday night,Dwight Adams was simply in top form, wow! He just made the music sing with both his trumpet and fugelhorn.Slow ballads or fast hard blowing Bop it was all good. He had 3 very young (25 years or younger) musicians in his quartet and they could flat out play(Dwight teaches music at Wayne State University). Live jazz in a small club like Baker`s is a pure musical treat.

Any audio component that sacrifices the tone,density and body of these live instruments in the name of ultra detail is just wrong! There`s so much tonal color and vivid harmonics when you listen live,it can`t be ignored.IMO it`s a wrong direction to dilute that sound and make it leaner,thin and flatten and then call it accurate,a crying shame.These live jazz venues give you the straight truth direct from the stage.
Charles,

charles1dad September 02, 2013 16:35

Lots of enthusiasm for single-ended amplifiers, which is great!

Let me move to another subject---cables. Charles, I notice you're using Ocellia Reference for i/c and speakers, and High Fidelity CT-1 Ultimate for digital. Have you ever compared the CT-1 i/c or speaker cables to your Ocellias? I have a CT-1 i/c on loan that I am fairly impressed with but I would like a bit more top end air and liveliness. Maybe it just needs more hours.

I had never heard of Ocellia cables before but after reading the 6Moons review they seem pretty interesting. Is there some place that lets you demo them? I don't see Ocellia listed at the Cable Company which is where I get most of my cables.

salectric September 02, 2013 16:35

Charles, was responsible for me getting into BE BOP Jazz and going to live Jazz concerts. He also was instrumental in me changing what I thought was the best High power push pull thinking the sound would be more effortless at higher volumes. I never thought I would ever own a Single ended amp until spending many hours at his house and enjoying some beautiful music playing. I get now what he was after, just a more direct involvement in the players with a purer and more beautiful tonality. Because we go to a lot of live concerts including classical this method gets us closer than anything I know, 2nd order harmonics withstanding. We all know that audiophiles will say that you like colored sound and high distortion. These ignorant people don't go to live events and therefore don't base on reality. We just got back from a live Jazz Quartet at the oldest Jazz club in the world Bakers Keyboard Lounge and I'm telling you single ended mimics this greatly. No system will give you the huge dynamics and full sounds that these instruments make in real life, but we can get half way there with single ended.

jwm September 02, 2013 15:35

Sal,
If that was the case then that explains our different 300b experiences. Assuming you own a well built/designed amplifier, fitting them with the high level tubes will result in substantial sound improvement . You pay more for the premium 300b tubes but what's the point of having a good amplifier with mediocre quality tubes. The stereotype of dark, slow, syrupy and overly warm doesn't happen with the good amplifiers fitted with the higher level tubes. Still there'll always be the various camps of choice, 300b, 2A3, 45, 845/211 etc. Any of these tubes used properly can lead to great sound quality in a well implemented amplifier.
Charles,

charles1dad September 02, 2013 04:05

That's a good point about premium 300B tubes. Those weren't available when I had my 300B amps.

salectric September 02, 2013 03:35

Hi Sal,
When it comes to output tubes we all have our favorites.With 300b tubes I`ve found such a wide range of sound quality that there can be near night and day differences.The premium level 300b tubes are fantastic for my taste and use.When you factor in the driver tube choice there`s additional variability among them in terms of sound/performance.The great news is that there`s a output tube available to please any preference,a bit of searching is all that`s required.So far I`ve found no limitations with any music genre with my current amp. I also love high energy big band jazz as you mentioned.Sal that 46 tube must sound really nice,I`ve never heard it.
Charles,

charles1dad September 01, 2013 21:54

Hi Onemug,
From my understanding DHT tubes lower their distortion as the power use(range) decreases.Some other amplifier types ironically will 'increase' distortion level at very low power levels. Your math is right,at the SPLs we normally listen to the power is well under one watt with high efficiency speakers,often fractions of a watt as you pointed out(when the SPL is 75 db and less). Even at 80-85 db I`m using 1/2-1 watt of power and that`s not a soft quiet level either. So in this range distortion is miniscule and this is why the sound is so pure and natural to us.Onemug I always appreciate your comments.
Charles,

charles1dad September 01, 2013 21:41

Charles,

Thanks for the Roger Kellaway suggestion. It would appear it's only available in CD format so I will have get it that way.

I first tried SET amps back in the mid-90s after hearing some Cary amps at a dealer. I built a pair of 300B monoblocks that I call the "mules" since I kept changing them to experiment with different driver circuits and power supplies. I tried something like 20 different circuits in those amps, and the best of them had some very attractive qualities. Eventually, however, I decided the 300B was not the tube for me and I traded down power-wise to the 46 which puts out a bit more than 1 watt. The 46 has the speed, detail and refinement I like, and for some reason a 46 sounds a lot more powerful than 1 watt so this isn't as crazy as it may appear.

In any case, I still have my feet firmly planted in two camps---both single-ended and push-pull. Depending on the music, my mood and how loud I want to listen, I go back and forth between the two. I find the SE 46 is best suited for smaller scale music that is more introspective. It is ideal for early morning listening. If I want to play orchestral music with wide dynamics or large jazz ensembles like Stan Kenton, Ellington or Basie and feel like I am actually in the venue, then I go with the Emotive push-pull amps. They can create a wall of sound with sometimes spooky transparency that can make me feel like I am there. For me each set of amps has its own strengths.

salectric September 01, 2013 21:12

Thanks for the above suggestions. Art Farmer's LATHN was especially nice. Thanks Sal.

Charles, I haven't had my spl meter out in awhile but I just measured it now, in my office, and was averaging 60-70 db. I'll check it out later when I have the main system on. I'll guess 70-80 then.

Agree.... low spl levels sound great with a SET (and correct speakers) and our ears will thank us.

It would be interesting to see what the many types of amplifiers would measure "at low levels" as opposed to "max power". I have seen the specs on some highly regarded (non SET) amps when measured across their power bandwidth, and while they measured fantastic between 1 and "their max" watts they had a sharp rise in distortion below 1/4th of a watt. It's been said that triodes have decreasing distortion with decreasing power. My ears hear that.

Some might think, "what can you hear with a 1/4 watt?", I think a lot. Even with a low rated 85 db speaker, you get that with 1 watt, 75 db would take 1/10th of a watt and 65 would "require" 1/100 wpc. I just measure out TV volume at 70 db from 12' away and it's not a whisper.

Sorry for the long post. I'm going between this and US Open Tennis on TV.

Q: What does Tennis and our systems have in common?
A: Why, SETs of course. :-)

onemug September 01, 2013 21:03

Onemug and Sal, one more suggestion is Roger Kellaway "Live At The Jazz Standard" also features Russell Malone and Stephon Harris. This is very good!
Charles,

charles1dad August 31, 2013 20:34

Hi Sal,
We do have quite similar taste in jazz music. I have the live Half Note with Art Farmer and Jim Hall and will definitely look for your other recommendations. You just can't have too much jazz, the more I aquire and listen to the more I want. Just as you said live jazz recordings are wonderful to play, they put me tight in that familiar venue . Sal that's really how I settled down with SET amps, they remind me more of the true sound and feel of live musicians than any other type of amp I've heard. Is that what got you into SET amplifiers?
Charles,

charles1dad August 31, 2013 20:14

Hi Onemug,
Funny you mentioned live club, two friends and I are going to see a fine local trumpeter and his quartet tonight at the legendary Baker's Keyboard Lounge in Detroit. I don't attempt to mimic the same volume of the clubs at home usually (just occasionally). I listen most often in the 75-85 db SPL range which is plenty for me. Sometimes I'll take it to 95-100 db level and it's still very good and relaxed without any sense of strain. But I want to keep my hearing good for as long as I can. Interestingly as my system has evolved I can listen at much lower levels (60db range) and it is still engaging and musically involving .
Charles,

charles1dad August 31, 2013 19:58

Charles,

I couldn't agree more about "Night Lights." That is certainly one of my favorite Mulligan albums. By the way, do you happen to have his "Feelin" Good" album from 1965? It includes something called "The Lonely Night" which is a reworking of the same tune, but what's really interesting is that Gerry plays clarinet. Not surprisingly, he can really swing on clarinet as well. There are a couple other tracks on the same album with him on clarinet but this appears to be a one-time trial. I haven't been able to find any other recordings with him on clarinet.

I have the Carmen McRae album also but not the Billy Eckstine. I will keep an eye out for it.

Since your "night Lights" recommendation shows you are a man of impeccable taste, let me offer a couple others that you may find of interest:

1. "Live at the Half Note" with the Art Farmer Quartet including Jim Hall

2. Marian McPartland's "At the Festival"

3. Johnny Lytle "Swingin' At the Gate"

Not coincidentally, these are all live recordings. A very high percentage of my favorite jazz albums are live. Sometimes the sonics may be lacking somewhat (not on these though), but the excitement in the music makes all the difference.

salectric August 31, 2013 18:56

Thanks Charles.

I'm going venture a guess that you play your music at the same level it would be if you were at a club, yes, no? If you were at a club, would you prefer the "sound" from the front, middle or back row?

Just accessed GM "Night Lights" from MOG. I like the style. First cut had me. Great imaging on the second cut. Had to stop typing to appreciate it.

onemug August 31, 2013 18:07

Hi Onemug,
Reading various forums and blogs it seems that people familiar with the EML 300b like all 3 versions quite a bit. Most wrote that the XLS and mesh were the top choices although they sound different from each other. No one said the standard 300b was bad at all, just the other two were preferred based on comparison. I suspect I'd like the standard version as well.

The XLS is a drop in replacement and its sounding very fine in the Frankenstein, it has a big and bold presentation yet retains a certain elegance and natural flow. Now that my amplifier's autobias is back to its original settings I could use the mesh plate again. Both are excellent choices for my amplifier. Onemug I think you'd like the three CDs mentioned earlier.
Charles,

charles1dad August 31, 2013 16:42

Hi Charles,

I'm curious as to what your reasons were in choosing the EML XLS over their standard 300b.

According to the EML literature, it seems like the XLS is optimized for 300b amps that run their tubes harder and/or if someone played their music pretty loud, it would hold up and sound better than the standard one. Do they lose anything at really low levels?

I have no doubt that it sounds great and I may have to try them someday. I have their older standard 300b with the larger glass and the newer smaller glass one (about the size of the WE) with gold grids in addition to the Mesh we talked about in the past. btw, the Mesh seems to keep getting better still.

Also, been checking in here from time to time for your jazz recommendations. Listening to Frank Morgan as I type. Thanks. I'll check out your newest from your latest post. Keep them coming.

onemug August 31, 2013 16:09

Sal,
I`ll return the favor and suggest three recordings I believe you`d enjoy.
1. Gerry Mulligan "Night Lights" features Art Farmer and Jim Hall.
2.Carmen McRae "The Great American Song Book" live jazz club venue with her and a quartet. Features the marvelous Joe Pass.
3.Billy Eckstine "Imagination" late 1950s with Billy in peak form.
Charles,

charles1dad August 31, 2013 04:24

Salectric,
I found the CD copy of "2 Degrees East 3 Degrees West" and ordered from Amazon. I`m can`t wait to hear this music, what a special line up of musicians,thanks.
Charles,

charles1dad August 31, 2013 03:56

Sal,
I haven't any doubts that your 3 unique amplifiers are providing you with absolutely blissful music reproduction.
Charles,

charles1dad August 30, 2013 16:24

Charles, I do understand your feelings about the Yamamoto DAC and I am sure it sounds as good as you say. In my case, my CD collection is minuscule compared to vinyl so digital is not an option for regular listening.

Today I am enjoying a number of 1950's LPs while comparing three different amplifiers each of which uses a 46 output tube. The circuit topology is basically the same in all of them but they have different driver tubes (Western Electric 417a in two of them and WE 403b in the other) and different rectifier tubes (5R4GY and 280) as well as different interstage transformers (Intact Audio vs. Lundahl). All of the amps use the same Electra Print silver output transformers with dedicated 16 ohm outputs. It's a real treat to have all of these on hand at one time. Lots of fun! Needless to say, the music sounds great through each amp, but each one has its own special qualities.

salectric August 30, 2013 15:33