maybe interesting to note that the NHB18 user manual has an added page (page10 to be downloaded from the website) which shows a photograph of the phonoboard with all settings available. again very clever thinking with the soldered / desoldered pads. (it doesnt stop anywhere with DartZeel isn't it..) these values can be paralleled too.
the standard MC resistor values are 100/510/1k/5k and open (0,47K) good useable values although a broad choice.
to me it looks like these 4 positions can be given any custom value the owner would like. now i have bought a great deal of Riken and Shinkoh resistors at partsconnexion, these Japanese resistors are not longer beeing made and are one of the very best soundwise. do i get banned for this information at Gon?
hope not :-)
my Colibri used to hover around the 450 ohms to feel good, after the Airline revision it flies between the 150/250 ohms.

any experiences on these NHB18 solder pads concerning phono load are greatly appreciated.

tuboo March 30, 2009 18:49

yeah thanks mike, once again very informative and inspiring.
once it will be opportune i order nhb18 with two phonosections, twofold: this way there is possibility to load each section with different value resistors and do comparisons between. (my XCW feels very happy around 150 ohms btw)
but the thought of two arms come to mind as well.
the more you explore the DartZeel amps the more you realise Herve Deletraz has spent for good reason soo many years in designing and executing. brilliant really.

tuboo March 20, 2009 15:55

Dgad,
agree with your arc tekst. i have had the Wally too with my former Schroder ref, great tool.
the earlier Schroders had the counterweights drilled in the center. i have experienced hard times as to tracking with the Ref & XCW. Frank started to modify the counterweights and drilled them offset, so much more weight got under the center of the arm. with that type counterweight the tracking was instantly fine.
the Schroder Ref is one of the most musical and magical arms i have ever had. the drawback is the fiddling with adjustments which keeps coming back at you. it is very sensitive to humidity and temperature. if you like to tune and twiddle that is ok, but in the end one may get tired of tweaking.
with the Airline there is extreme stability and it is truly rocksteady once adjusted* it may not have the *magic* of the Schroder Ref, but we could debate if that magic-in-the-air is on the mastertape or not. i loved it but i also think the Airline is much closer and truer to that same mastertape!
would love to own both arms at same TT:-)

to answer your question: yes my XCW was a great match with the Schroder Ref.
i would advise anyone to mention the arm to be used when ordering or tuning his VdHul.
with the Airline it is mandatory to mention.

* the Airline is very easy to set up but needs extremely accurate levelling of TT. forget about common household levellers. you need the best. i ended up buying a digital one $$$ which is self calibrating. The Airline in itself is a calibrating tool to any leveller. If the Airline does not work out buy a better leveller first.

tuboo March 16, 2009 16:25

"i played it on the resonate frequency tracks on the test record and it had no resonance at any frequency either lateral or vertical on the test record. can that be right?"

partly right.
we both have linear trackers and this is a very different topology opposed to pivoted arms.
the lateral resonance is not there since the arm is 'fixed' in it's 3D movement. the vertical resonance must still be seen but also here the linear tracking is very different in behaviour opposed to pivoted arm.
in general resonance below 10 hertz will be fine.
some phono preamps have subsonic filters and even a few have selection in highpass 10/15/20 hertz. great idea to offer this feature still.

i have had my XCW tuned to the Airline, before i got the Airline i had a Schroder Ref and my experience with the Airline is that it did not cope at all with the XCW in it's standard form. after the tuning (and after again some 100 hours..) they perform like a dream team.
it will be likely that my XCW will not cope with any pivot arm in this form vise versa.
well this was my experience anyway, the Airline is here to stay it is such an different game opposed to any pivot arm.
not for *sound* in particular, but the overall stability and the feeling of getting closer to the mastertape is very addictive. superb combo.

tuboo March 16, 2009 09:47

Dgad,
The first 50 hours with any type Colibri is indeed a struggle.. but resonance around 15 Hz is too high.
with my former Schroder arms the resonance got down much lower when the counterweight was modified to offset type in which the mass went down opposed to the center of the armtube.
it is very tempting to go adjusting and tweaking in the early stage to cope with all sorts of problems like tracking etc. after some 100 hours everything will settle down very nicely..
yess XGW is something special, i would not part with it anytime.
keep em spinning.

tuboo March 08, 2009 21:20

it is indeed great to read Herve's explanation and thoughts.
yes the DartZeel amps contain some pretty smart thinking and reflect a great mind i dare to say.
btw what is the status of the Viola Audiolabs and the Matthew James Cello amplifiers? are they still in business?
i used to own Cello too and enjoyed them very much.

keep em spinning :-)

tuboo March 06, 2009 20:26

Luigipenagos
great posting.
ofcourse Dartzeel would like to see lots of trade in for their mono's :-) only a happy few did listen to them and maybe they could offer a true performance gain over the nhb108 well see.
yes the advantage of 2/3 dB SPL is true. btw 3 dB is a LOT.
it depends on speaker concept if two nhb108 will be an true advantage. in my case with the Verity speakers there is great possibility on vertical bi-amping and reports on good performance gains doing so by many owners / reviewers.
there is a trick hidden inside the nhb108 in which you can set the bass channel to low impedance and the mid/high channel to high impedance in case of vertical biamping.
in my case the lowest impedance dip is reported 4.4 ohms so not really a disaster for nhb108.
but nevertheless this is a option worth to try out.
there is another thing to adress.
with two nhb108 in a vertical bi-amp situation they have an easier 'job' to do put in laymen talk.
with earlier experiences behind me, this can mean greater control, more grip resulting in a more effortless experience with better soundstage.
with two nhb108 in vertical biamp there are still only two transistors each channel so purity once again rules.
pls share your thoughts and experiences on this.

tuboo March 06, 2009 10:40

Question answered! thanks.

"As much as I liked the 2.2, the dartzeel just sounds better. It is picky about speakers preferring an efficient one but so what you only need one pair of speakers and then it will Sing! the synergy of the preamp with the amp is what makes it super special. The combo reduces me to tears sometimes it's so magical."

copied from another topic.
i think my savings need to speed up.
cheers

tuboo March 02, 2009 08:14

now thats relevant information Mtkhl!
great to get such info from field owners.
maybe you can answer my question on the B version: if all Dart amps are delivered in B version as a standard nowadays. sounds a logical move to me.
but maybe this is only rumour, maybe not.
for time beeing i wish you strenght not able to listen any music.. enjoy the eagerness until hooking up everthing again. there may be sure different sound getting into a different room. by all means keep us posted.
cheers

tuboo March 01, 2009 10:41

Thanks for all replies.
the B version (NHB108) has besides the auto DC compensation, balanced transformers at the XLR inputs. the NHB18/B version just the same with transformers at its outputs.
this way an purely SE amplifier can still operate with fully balanced connection and this topology is clearly derived from recording and studio operation. it is all choices in topology, no right nor wrong just choices. clever thinking of Herve to not use double transistors and keep purity in amplification, but nevertheless offering full balanced operation for a given situation.
pls correct if you please.

my question though concerns if DartZeel offers all amps in B version as standard nowadays. i have heard this, but not sure.
the B version is reported to have carried a higher price tag as opposed to the A but this i don't know for sure too.

version B makes it indeed more versatile in operation,
but most Dart owners report the Zeel 50 interconnection offering the last word in performance but hey not all Dart owners use Dart 18 > 108 as combo!
as for convenience to use XLR cables Lamm tube amplifiers have the XLR too besides the RCA. if a pin 1 to 3 jumper is used there is not a problem in using XLR cables.

so maybe i had to put my question somewhat different.
i hope you all get the clue. still saving up.
cheers;

tuboo February 28, 2009 16:44

question: is the B version still an option or does DartZeel skip the A version?
not sure to me.
still saving up.

tuboo February 27, 2009 20:13

thnx for your comeback Mike.
the situation in Europe is not so good either, many car brands report sales down between 10>30% even BMW reports on 28% down last December.. still saving up for our Z4 though.
also saving up for the Darts.
the new Dart mono's should be really exciting.
i am curious to the design and how many transistors are beeing used at the output.
the stereoamp has only one pair of transistors each channel.
in my case a NHB108 to start with is a sure bet with 95dB spkrs and just add another NHB108 in the future if funds permit.
the Lohengrin has great bi-amping possibilities and reports on greatly enhanced performance are solid.
with this vertically bi-amping there are still 2 transistors, but now separated to bassbin and topspeaker. this could / would relieve the amps of stress greatly but pls share your realworld experiences on this Mike :-)
downside is the need for another speakercable but alas with any Dart you save on one powercord and (as in my case as in your case) say 5 to 9 meters on interconnect.
now that adds up to cost!
the Zeel50 is quite a solution to save big dollars if you need to apply such a lenght..
keep em spinning.

tuboo February 17, 2009 18:08

Dgad
Have Colibri XCW 0,85mV which has seen quite some tuning to get along with different arms in it's lifespan.
the wooden bodies do offer something special compared to the carbonate or metal bodies. to my information there have been 20x 'W' bodies made but maybe my information is outdated.
i guess i use my XCW example for some 8 years now.
keep em spinning:-)

tuboo February 13, 2009 16:54

Very inspiring to hear that the DZ mono's sounded superb even at this very preliminary stage.
keep saying to myself that with 95dB sensitivity i dont need 458 monos... it is a somewhat calming thought indeed. still saving up.

tuboo February 03, 2009 16:48

Mtkhl567 :

OH will they be named 458 ?
i already made up my mind on the Dart preamp.
it will be first on my list and two phonostages will be welcome for sure it is such a great option.
from more then one reviewer i destillate that the Dart pre is the more *neutral* opposed to the Dart power.
maybe i interpret here, for now i can only read reviews.
so i put an asterix on neutral. it is a word which can be bend into anything especially in highend audio ;-)

i'm also very interested in experiences from any Dart owner on matching their Dart pre with other poweramps be it balanced or SE.
we see a lot of Dart combo users, and for reason i must conclude..
now Herve has strong opinions on the balanced topology, his white papers on this are clear enough.
the Dart concept is purely single ended with a less is better concept. and so the 'B' version has the little transformers on the inputs. a very clever solution but on absolute terms and in theory there are losses with any transformers. then again with a true balanced concept there are twice the parts and twice the amount of transistors (or tubes) my personal experience has shown me: more transistors and more parts equals less purity. now tonal purity is just one parameter but an important one though.
ymmv

with the Stereophile measurements by John Atkinson he found strange things when the XLR inputs were measured pls look up the Dart review issue.
to me it is not clear whether the review example was a 'B' version or not.
following his peculiar findings it is the more interesting what actual owners experience when partnering the Dart 'B' preamp to balanced poweramps.

maybe start a new topic on this.

thanx for sharing.

cheers

tuboo October 16, 2008 08:27

Thanks to all DART insight on this topic.
i had also the impression that words of Mikey Fremer on the Dart combo had more to do with his personal taste and way of wanting to listen to music than in absolute way.
i agree that the biggest Krell and biggest Gryphon poweramps will always 'beat' anything on sheer slam and power. that comes with a price to pay in other areas.. totally impressive as they might be, after some hours of listening i'm not touched moved and inspired.

cheers

tuboo October 14, 2008 10:40

Have had the opportunity to listen to mastertapes too.
it made me sigh.
just not fair.
who said audiophile life would be fair?

the DartZeel combo.
upon reading the latest Stereophile review of the top MBL preamp Michael Fremer made comparison to the Dart preamp too. now Mikey Fremer has reviewed just about any preamp and phonoamp.
we also know he is into big bass and loves bold dynamics.
and he actually bought the Dart preamp.
but also reviewed the Dart combo preamp poweramp which he experienced as somewhat mellow and all to easy on the ears.
pls read yourself as for exact words, excuse me if i put it in other words.

Mike and our Belgium based DART owner:

do you experience the Dart combo as beeing 'mellow' or even too easy sounding ?
or is this just Michael Fremer who happens to like overly exciting sounds...
taste varies.
curious about any Dart combo ownership and experience on this matter.

still saving up ;-)

tuboo October 13, 2008 18:17

Yes the Lasertronic may only be used to good effect when speakers have flat sides, or a flat top.
if so the measurements are way more accurately then any measurement done at the floor with tape or markers etc.
the digital readout in a vertical plane can be used to read the inclinement of both speakers.
Avalon, Wilson, Verity are a few speaker brands which can truly benefit from use of the Lasertronic. there will be many other brands ofcourse, but a cheapo laser leveller will not even come close to the proven accuracy of the Lasertronic.

tuboo September 22, 2008 17:33

hello Mike,

i use this one:

http://www.sola.at/453_EN.6277E4A12973084?View=Product&detailid=72&title=Lasertronic

it also does angle measurements with the digital scale.
great to set up your speakers vertically too, or at any angle you wish.
once using this gem, you never want to go back to tape at the floor. ;-)
trick is to get the exact center line at the floor first.
i have made a devise which 'captures' the laser dot at a piece of triplex about 4" width and 5 feet long.
on this piece i have set out vertical lines with a marker.
this devise can be set up every time and again. i even take it to audiophile friends. mind you it will not work with every speaker.
you gotta have a flat surface somewhere. or you can make a mould to a curved side.

the longer the distance the better the accuracy..
if you want pictures pls PM.

regards;

tuboo September 18, 2008 14:17

Hello Mike,

i see you have toed in your MM3 to a great amount.
they are set apart a fair distance too.
likely the soundstage should 'fill in' superbly between the speakers, but do you experience left and right extension still?
it makes me think, because i'm in the stage of discovering how the set up my Lohengrin's. nothing really wrong up to now, but i'm tuning in... and not drop out.
i do set up using a laser, and use an wooden ruler at a stand back in my room. it makes adjustments soo repeatable, easy and extremely accurate all at the same time. cannot do without laser anymore.

pls advise.

tuboo August 27, 2008 17:25

Yes indeed a comparison between 45 watts class A opposed to 1Kw on class D seems to be somewhat out of line. ;-)
then again if we do a contest on 'baddest bass' any Genesis 1.1 owner would only smile reading our conversation..

it would be very interesting to compare the 45 watt Accuphase to the DartZeel.
and on my turn i would love to hook up a pair of Krell FPB 700 -or what do they offer at the moment- mono amplifiers to the Lohengrin, it * might* show nice and tight bass ;-)

does the MM3 have servo controlled bass btw?
in the meantime i'm saving up for the Dart combo, and keep an eye on the Dart monoblocks somewhere in 2009.
have seen that the Dart integrated may be ordered in all black finish too. sooo nice to see. At Munich highend on static display.

btw any EMM owner should give the new DCS Puccini a sincere listening. just amazing really.
i'm more into Vinyl.

tuboo August 25, 2008 13:16

thanks for all replies.
we must take into account so many variables. the room dimensions itself, the acoustical behavior -has the room actually been acoustically measured- and ofcourse we do not listen to 'a speaker' we listen to a complete setup.
it is no hard job to get any top flight speaker sounding so so. we have had testimony of that fenomenon in Munich Highend show once again this year.
there were one brand demoes of gear costing maybe 200.000 euro, and although very impressive on spl and bass we got out of the demoe room within 5 minutes mumbling 'i don't want to sit here any longer'.
now these were indeed very respectable brands and have great reputation and it may only be for the room acoustics, the AC power and or ancilliary equipment that we experienced what we experienced.
there was one particular room with the Avalon Isis and the new Hovland gear which sounded sooo balanced.
but here we entered a fully acoustically treated room..
this demoe was one of few which really impressed us.
other Isis demoes turned out different.

so demo rooms have always to benefit of doubt concerning labelling and reviewing speakers on absolute terms.
it is in most cases an impression, no less no more.
we have fallen too many times in this trap, and too many times it turned out same speaker X sounding very different in another room.

The Lohengrin needs -no it craves- partnering with truly superb amps no less. but again that is hardly news for any great speaker.
to get the 15" woofers really doing their thing aint easy.
but when it happens with the right amp boy o boy they move air.

hereby a copy paste FAQ from the Verity website:

I like to have quick, tight and well-controlled bass.
Is it true that a large-diameter woofer like the one used in
the Lohengrin might be lacking speed?

A: It's been a misconception to think that because smaller woofers are quicker they sound better. What's important here is how quick you move the air. A larger cone travels less to displace the same amount of air. Therefore to displace the same air-volume, a 7.5-inch woofer will need to be 4 times quicker than a 15-inch woofer. The end result is the same except that the 15-inch woofer needs less speed and creates less distortion. A properly designed 15-inch woofer can be even relatively quicker if we speak about cubic-inch per second. The Lohengrin’s 15-inch woofer belongs to this category. Trying to achieve similar results by using a combination of multiple small-diameter woofers is generally a cheaper method packed with compromises.

tuboo August 25, 2008 07:43

"at the end of the day i'm not really hankering for a different amp"

Well Mike you pulled me over the bridge now.
i'm saving up.
have a suspicious feeling the Dart's will bring out the best with the Lohengrin at 95dB and nominal 8 with deepest dip at 4.4 ohm.

yup have read all things avail at the website, thanks again.
yes those HP350 monoblocks will be interesting, but at 80K the admission price is indeed high.
take into account the 50 Ohm Dart to Zeel connection saves you another 10 to 15K+ on balanced ic lines too.
i love the retro thinking with phonostages built in, there seems to be a trend. think good phonostages don't need 30 pound boxes with separate powersupplies. nice to show off, but the Pure Simplicity and Reliability serves any phonostage well.

have listened only very briefly at the Munich highend show, but could not really experience due to show conditions.
we experienced 95% of all demoe's were not representative as to likely performance.
only very few did some room acoustics.

oops there goes a can of worms..

thanks alot Mike!

tuboo August 23, 2008 17:16

Compliments on this audiophile journey Mike.
it's a true pleasure to read all posts.
after all those great amplifiers it seems to me you really stick with the Swiss Darts isn't it..?
2009 will eventually bring monoblocks ive read somewhere.
after those initial raving experiences a long time ago when inserting the Darts, you must have found peace of mind.

could you once more describe your Dart experiences now they are serving you the music after so many years...?
i mean the long haul.
have you actually thought of inserting other amps yet again?

curious.

cheers, keep 'em spinning!

tuboo August 23, 2008 11:57