Dear Bigamp, Thank for your information on Antelope 10M. Did you notice that Antelope 10M alone can't generate 44.1, 96, or 192 KHz clock signal, instead it just generate 10 MHz reference clock for Antelope OCX or OCX-V. In the end, you need to at least by one Antelope OCX and one Antelope 10M, total cost is USD 1,595 (OCX) plus USD 2,200 (10M) = USD 3,800. But one question, on OCX, the freqency divider circuit board just claims only 1 ppm accuracy Vs 0.1ppm accuracy on Esoteric G-03X which one do you prefer. I think it depends on you to judge whether the investment of USD 2,000 more for 0.1 ppm accuracy is worth or not. That's why I would like to tell you that Rubidium clock is one thing, excellent frequency divider circuit is the other thing. Rubidium clock alone can't give you an accuracy of 0.00005ppm at 44.1 KHz.

Anyway, I recommend you to try and test by yourself to see the difference in sound quality between Antelope and Esoteric. I would like to know the result also. :)

videoht May 15, 2007 19:14

Dear Mikel, I think no need to blind test between TT and digital recording from TT. I bet on your side, Mikel. But I don't agree to do the wasting time test like that. Please remind that we play Hi-End audio for fun, and we want to conduct a very good sound from our Hi-Fi system. We are audiophile, not a gambler. There is no win or loss on listening to Hi-End system. I devote myself to develope a better and better sound quality through our Hi-Fi system.

Mikel, as I stated earlier, in final result comparing TT Vs SACD playback sound quality. At the end, no one win, it just depends on the mastering whether it is DSD digital mastering or Analog tape mastering. Very easy to try, just pick the Opus3 test 4 on the same title between TT and SACD, and listen. I bet TT will have a slightly better sound quality because they can do record mastering directly without run through D to A again. Next, pick Eden Atwood, Wave Bossa The Nova Session. I bet on SACD since they do this record on DSD mastering. So to do a master for record, they need to convert from DSD to analog again before doing TT mastering. So, it must run through D to A.

Ther is one funny thing about this behavior as I get it from my friend who was working in Studio recording, there is studio engineer, who want to test which one is better between TT and SACD format, so they just direct convert from Analog Master Tape to DSD mastering and TT record mastering, after they cut the master SACD disc and master TT record, then they play back and compare. They claim the SACD playback is very transparency and make no different from Analog master tape reel. Meanwhile, listen to master TT record, it is slightly different from Analog master tape reel, but he feels very comfortable and enjoy with the color added by Turntable, Cartridge and Tonearm. So, it depends on which one do you prefer Transparency or Color.

I think the reason for Audiophile to prefer TT is that the distortion created by TT playback system is very comfortable to our hearing system. For example, if you can't calibrate the cartridge to the optimum, you will slightly lose detail on Hi-Freq, and a bit blur on the bass, moreover an error on speed control will help color a human voice. Meanwhile, if the CD and SACD playback is not proper calibrated or the Transport design is bad, the distortion come in the form harsh and itchy sound, too much "S..S" on human voice, bass is too strong without harmonic which erritate our hearing system so much.

If you want to hear the distortion of the TT, very easy just pick the test disc for example hi-fi choice and check the running speed to be precise as much as possible and playback 1 KHz test tone, you will hear the sound modulate up and down like "E" "Eor" "E" "Eor" all the time. Anyway, the better the turntable playback system, for example, Rockport Sirius III or Vyger Indian Signature, the less "E" "Eor" you will hear. Some Audiophiles are very prefer this "E" "Eor" so much until they don't like Rockport Sirius III or Vyger Indian Signature. Meanwhile, the cheapest CD Player can reproduce 1 KHz test tone correctly, you will hear only stable "E". But this is not guarantee you will a good sound since this is just a single test tone. In real music playback, there is something else to account for like phase angle, harmonic distortion, impulse response, high amplitude distortion, bandwidth, dynamic headroom and more.

Like mine, I don't care what it will be TT or SACD. But I need it to get to optimum on both TT and SACD. I prefer both TT and SACD playback to get close to live concert, and can recreate the feeling of each recording studio ambience. That's why I recommend you to try this G-0Rb since it help closing the gap between TT and SACD. Now, in my system, Neither TT nor SACD is win, just having a pro and con on each format. With a proper SACD record, it will have a good thing of TT plus good thing offered by SACD.

As an audiophile freind, I wish you will enjoy listen to both format. That is my ultimate goal. :)

videoht May 15, 2007 11:55

Dear Bigamp, I also aware about the available of Cesium Atomic Clock also. They use the attenna to lock up internal oscillator to Cesium Atomic pulse code. That's sell for USD 3,495. But please remind that the Rubidium or Cesium pulse code generate 10 MHz only. You need the other frequency divider circuit to generate 44.1 KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz, and other frequency also. And this circuit is very important in generating the precision clock frequency.

If you notice, Cesium atomic clock precision variance is 5x10^-12. Rubidium clock precision variance is 5x10^-11. But when it pass through Esoteric frequency divider circuit, the accuracy drop to only 5x10^-5.

At first, I think as you that Esoteric charge too much price for this master clock generator comparing to the one used in laboratory. But I have no choice since you need the best frequency divider circuit to generate the frequency that we can have.

In the market, you can also buy the Esoteric G-03X (USD 3,500), and buy the 10MHz Rubidium clock generator (USD 2,200) and hook it up together to generate a precise clock. So, altogether still cheaper than G-0Rb alone - USD 5,700 Vs USD 13,500. But do you expect the same result, I don't know the answer for that. But one thing sure is that I have already opened the top cover to check the circuit inside G-03X and G-0Rb, I am willing to pay more for G-0Rb since the circuit design and quality of each component used in G-0Rb is much better than G-03X. Can you imagine the weight of G-0Rb is at 20 Kgs Vs 11 Kgs on G-03X.

My ulimate wish is that I will try to use the 10MHz Cesium Atomic Clock pulse to lock into G-0Rb to see the improvement over internal Rubidium clock generator. By far, I am very satisfy with the result of this G-0Rb. So, that would be my next step when I can't improve the other thing in my system.

One thing I want to make note that I am not recommend this G-0Rb to the standard system or sub-optimum system as it is not worth money investment. You need to use this clock in the ultra hi-end system to make a quantum leap in sound quality. Remember, it doesn't change the tonal balance if you use it correctly. It will only portray a 3D sound stage clearer, more immense in timing and emotion, and more delicacy in inner detail. This would be very little or difficult noticeable in a mid or lower high end system. But for my system which use 6 ways speaker like Quintessence Stealth SV, it is a huge improvement that can't get from doing other thing.

I think Esoteric is quite fair for their price, if you notice that DCS sell Verona 0.1ppm accuracy at USD 6,500 meanwhile Esoteric sell G-03X 0.1ppm accuracy at USD 3,500. Which one do you is more reasonable? Or you can buy much cheaper Apogee Big Ben at USD 2,000 with about 2-3 ppm accuracy.

I hope this will help you clarify your question!

videoht May 15, 2007 06:38

Dear Mikel, thank for interesting in Esoteric G-0Rb, here is the connection layout:
From CDSD to DAC6e, just connect ST-Glass Data out and ST-Glass Clock out to DAC6e as usual. And set the DAC6e clock switch to be "Ext" position on front panel. So, you use only 2 ST-Glass cable instead of 3 ST-Glass.

From Esoteric G-0Rb to CDSD, just connect one BNC 75 Ohm RG-11 Digital cable from A1 BNC output to BNC clock input on back of CDSD. And switch the clock input from "Opt" to "BNC", and switch to "75 Ohm" on back of CDSD. By doing this, the internal crystal oscillator of CDSD will synchronize to Esoteric G-0Rb clock signal, and the internal clock of DAC6e will synchonize to internal clock of CDSD which is now run at much more procision 0.00005ppm.

Oh, I forget to tell you that just set the "A" clock output to be 44.1 KHz only.

But if you use DCC2 instead of DAC6e, just connect only one ST-Glass data output from CDSD to DCC2. And connect the BNC clock signal cable from G-0Rb A1 BNC output to CDSD BNC clock input, and G-0Rb A2 BNC output to DCC2 BNC clock input. Don't forget to set the clock switch on front panel to be "BNC", and "EXT".

In theory, connect to DCC2 which clock out direct from G-0Rb to DCC2 should yield a slightly better result, but I haven't test it yet.

I hope you will have a chance to try it soon, but please be noted that it take about one week of continuous run before the Rubidium will extremely stable. So serious comparison should be started after one week. Like in my system, 3rd day is worst sound quality, after that it continue to improve more and more. And also, you can tune a speed, timing, impact, detail by changing the AC power cord, BNC clock cable, isolation base shelf. It has so much effect on sound quality which is very amazing for me because it is just only the clock signal with extremely precision clock inside.

I hope you will enjoy it like I do with Emmlabs equipment.

videoht May 14, 2007 17:13

Dear Stereoteipei,

Esoteric now still sell the VRDS-Neo mechanism as an OEM product, but it is quite expensive and you need to order it in a big volume like 30+ units. Now, DCS use this VRDS-Neo in their new top model transport. As I mention about the APL, actually they can base on Esoteric X-01SE, but they should have a new APL front plate design and their own brandname to differentiate their own product. Since, I believe in what they are doing which 60% is APL own design. That's all.

I agree with you on VRDS-Neo performance, that's why I would like to install the ST-Glass output of Emmlabs in Esoteric P-01 or P-03. And no need to modify the cap or power supply as their design is excellent.

I think it good for them to start their own DAC under APL brand. Frankly, I'm very admire David Heaton of Audio Synthesis as one of genius designer as I check their circuit design of Audio Synthesis DAX Discrete, it is very good design and he designed his own DAC chip which is totally different from Burr Brown or Analog Device. Their DAX Discrete is very good sound quality too. Last time I compare it side by side with Emmlabs CDSD and DAC6e, comparing to DAX Discrete and Esoteric P-0s, no one win, but each have their pros and cons, but one thing sure is that Emmlabs sound better on SACD playback.

Again nice to share some experience with you, Stereoteipei

videoht May 14, 2007 16:39

Thanks for your comment, Mikel!

I'm very agree with you that modify is not for everyone since it is very elaborate and paintaking job to mod. That's why I just recommend the other people to test only the Esoteric Master clock G-0Rb as I think it is very worth testing, if you don't like it. Just take out the BNC connector and that's all. Normal practise for modifying, I will have the standard CDSD and DAC6e on the side for comparison to check whether the mod unit trade-off sth. with STD unit or not? That's why I didn't recommend the other people to follow my mod. It is very difficult to get on the right track.

About the connector of Emmlabs is proprietary that's right for ST-Glass, but for BNC 44.1KHz and 48 KHz clock in/out it is an industry standard one, so you can use the master clock from DCS, Apogee, Alesis, and many others to test with CDSD and DCC2. Please don't forget that Emmlabs support a lot of Professional Studio for mastering. Most digital professional equipments will have clock in/out terminal as a standard connector to make sure that all equipment will synchonize on the same clock to eliminate the jitter. Mikel, please check with Ed Meitner for this clock link. The reason I try it because I check the precision of this Esoteric G-0Rb is at 0.00005 ppm and very impressive to be better than other clock precision from other manufactures which normally at 1 ppm or 0.1ppm.

About the APL unit, I agree with you. I would not call that modify a unit, instead APL built the other cd player since taking out DAC board, change the DAC chip, switch to tube buffer output is not modify any more. For me, I will change only some parts that improve the sound quality but I will not change the D to A board, or the Opamp like APL. I am very admire Ed Meitner for his genius design that's why I should to improve the sound quality from his equipment.

About the Turntable Vs SACD sound quality, please try to use Esoteric G-0Rb to hook into your CDSD SE. If you have confuse in connecting that, please inform me. I will describe it to you. I bet you will an idea of what I try to tell you. I am very eager to hear your response after using G-0Rb as I'm very admire your capability in testing the equipment.

Dear Stereoteipei, very nice to share some comments with you too. If I got the chance to Teipei, I will contact you since I live nearby Teipei. About APL, I quite don't like to modify like that. I think if APL do like that they should buy only the Esoteric VRDS-Neo and design their own unit like Wadia or DCS do. This is just my opinion :)

videoht May 14, 2007 13:14

Dear Henry, very nice to discuss with you. I hope my experience can help the other audiophiles to get some new idea. Frankly, I didn't recommend the other audiophiles to modify without proper electronic knowledge background and good electronic technician. I'm very lucky that I have my friend who are very keen in fixing Hi-End equipment for more than 15 years. He also can design some circuit for me too. :)

Please understand that I am not a recognized Meitner Modifier. I'm just do it on my own risk, it is just for my hobby to find out the finest sound quality. Now, I'm waiting for my friend new CDSD SE and DAC6e SE to compare to my mod CDSD and mod DAC6e. My friend also very eager to know the result also as he consult with about modifying new CDSD SE and DAC6e SE as in my unit. By that time, I should have a very fun job to test this unit.

For other audiophiles, I suggest that trying only G-0Rb (sorry I qoute the wrong model previously "G-0Rd")hook up to standard CDSD or if you are lucky to have CDSD and DCC2, you can hook it up seperately from G-0Rb to CDSD and DCC2 which should have a better result than my connecting layout. For clock cable, I suggest the other to try with good digital 75 Ohm BNC cable and connector. But I do recommend RG-11 SDI digital video cable with quad shield, as I test many RG-6 video cable, but I found out RG-11 have a better sound quality.

Please note that you must try a master clock after your system is already optimum set up and calibrate, and almost go up to the upper limit of your system. Since using a G-0Rb in your system, it didn't increase the bass, mid, or treble so much, just very little. But it just expanding the sound stage, increasing the air around each instrument, recreating ambience in each recording, reducing the digital grain, improve focus on foreground and background. If your system is not high resolution enough, and wrong speaker placement and calibration, you can't get the magic of this master clock. Did you believe that Esoteric G-0Rb take about one week before the clock start to continuos stable? And once you use it, don't turn off this master clock as they use a Rubidium clock generator which need to heat at a certain temperature. I check with the Rubidium clock generator manufacturer, did you believe that the cost of Rubidium clock generator alone is at almost USD 2,000 WOW!

I think this Esoteric G-0Rb is not launched in USA yet, I am very lucky in getting this unit first in Southeast Asia. Actually, I borrow it from my friend who order it to use with Esoteric P-03 and D-03. I am just curious how it will improve my Emmlabs.

About the turntable Vs SACD sound quality, please read it carefully that I have just stated that now I just got the good thing of turntable plus more dynamic and clarity of CD and SACD. I never stated that it is better turntable 100%.

From my own opinion, I think either Turntable or SACD, if you can handle and calibrate it properly and optimumly, the result should be the sound quality should be closed to each other inwhich it should get close to Master Tape or Disc as much as possible. Now, the tonal balance of both turntable and SACD in my system is very close to each other. For example, an Opus3 SACD and Vinyl Record is a very good test. You will be very surprise, if you hear both format in my system. So, I need to have both SACD and Phono in my system because not all master have an equal quality, if you talk about the old record, SACD is inferior to Turntable. But for a new SACD with DSD mastering, Turntable is inferior to SACD. I hope you will get my idea.

About the modifying on CDSD and DAC6e, I replace the capacitor on the main board by using Tantalum cap for digital routing, and using Black Gate N series for analog supply and analog path. I didn't touch on SMD cap and resistor. The unit is working wonderfully and reliably, and I never turn it off. I make it run 24 Hrs.

For my dream project, I would like to install the Emmlabs ST-Glass output into Esoteric P-01 or P-03, and hook it to mod DAC6e SE or DCC2 SE. I don't know it can be done or not at this moment, but I have discussed this possibility with my friend. As I found out that the bad thing for Emmlabs CDSD is in the Philips SACD laser pickup base, if Emmlabs use Esoteric VRDS-Neo mechanic, it will improve the sound quality beyond imagination. DCS now already started to use Esoteric VRDS-Neo in their top model transport.

For interconnect cable,
Vyger Indian Signature to Aesthetix IO Sig - Virtual Dynamic(VD) Genesis
Aesthetix IO Sig to Viola Spirito - VD Revelation
Emmlabs DAC6e to Viola Spirito - VD Revelation
Viola Spirito to Custom made poweramp - VD Genesis

For all Speaker cable, VD Revelation

Power cord, is mixed between Aural Symphonic, Furutech, Virtual Dynamic, PS Audio, and Natural Link.

Now, I am consider to change poweramp, I think about Karan Acoustic, Viola, and Boulder. Do you have any idea about these poweramp?

I hope my answer can help clarify your question. :)

videoht May 13, 2007 19:20

Mike, I have followed up your system quite a long time ago, but never response to you. I would like to exchange some experience with you. About a year ago, I have started the project Emmlabs CDSD and DAC6e modify. I took out the old switching supply of both CDSD and DAC6e, and replace them by using linear transformer power supply from Plitron. Moreover, I have replaced a lot of Capacitors by using tantalum and Black Gate N series. The result is very worth doing it, it lifted out all harsh and stress, have more dynamic without grain. I have very satisfy with this modification. Until recently, I have just received the new Esoteric G-0Rd, newest clock from Esoteric. Then I hook up the clock out of Esoteric G-0Rd into Emmlabs CDSD clock input using BNC 75Ohm cable, then set the DAC6e to received the ST-Glass optic input to be external. By doing this all clock both CDSD and DAC6e will lock to Esoteric G-0Rd, the result is much more than I imagine. It recreate and expand the space into both depth and width 30% larger, and all digital trait is gone, just rich harmonic and very analog sound is coming in. And the most important thing is that the emotion is very stunning, with more impact dynamic, and correct scale of each recording is recreated. Very very recommend for trying it, I can't it out from my system now. Once I have gone back to using internal clock of CDSD and DAC6e, I am very question that why previously I think it was a very good sound. Please note that the full performance will show with at least 4 days of continuous running of this Esoteric G-0Rd. Don't turn this weapon off at all condition. Now I get all the good thing of turntable plus more clarity, soundstage, bandwidth, and dynamic of CD and SACD. Ooh, I forgot to tell you, once I have used the G-0Rd, the difference of redbook CD and SACD is showed much difference than before. I think that it was like that because the G-0Rd master clock generate a much more precise clock timing of 0.00005 ppm Vs 3 ppm clock using in CDSD and DAC6e. I also recommend this clock the other audiophile who use DCS and Esoteric equipment.

Here is my system reference:

Quintessence Acoustics Speaker - Stealth SV with 15"Subwoofer
Viola Audio labs - Spirito Preamp
Aesthetix -IO Signature Phono pre
Vyger Indian Signature Turntable with Vacuum Holddown and Carbon fiber Vision tonearm option.
Shook Mook Signature Cartridge
Emmlabs CDSD custom modify - SACD Transport
Emmlbas DAC6e custom modify - DAC
Esoteric G-0Rd - Master clock generator
Custom made Mono block power amplifier 500 watts/ch -4 units
Virtual Dynamic - Revelation and Genesis interconnect and speaker cable
My room size is 5 meters by 7.5 meters.

If you have any question, please feel free to ask me.

videoht May 12, 2007 07:52