2 channel simplicity

by moto_bruce on KEF LS-50Wyred4SoundBlue Jeans CableDone For NowSimple and satisfying sysMarantz
New house, new use, appropriate changes
Unconventional speaker placement.
Not the center of the room, but needs to be pleasing where ever we sit.
Frugal Man's amp stand.
Streamer, DAC, CD Player, Network Player. Made in Japan!
Making the visual more comfortable (2020).
marantz network player directly into the W4S (2020).
Gallos still excite (2020).

Description

2026. Simple stereo. These words will seem obtuse for a bit, but you can skip down to "The Setup" if you aren't interested in my bloviating. 

I have an ongoing conversation with a good friend of mine, about relocating as both of us relocated our families quite far away. After being dis / relocated for a couple of years, I realized that although the place we leave behind may be a geographic location, some part of us stays there, and some other parts don't survive the move. We are still talking that one through and we are trying to be patient with ourselves to allow ourselves to grow into a different place, a different life, and in a lot of ways, grow into this different person that we become.

That is a strange way to frame a stereo hifi, but it is one of the things that survived the move. Not the boxes themselves, but the desire, the need, to listen and be moved by music. I put on certain pieces for a listen and I am transported to another place, time, memory. It isn't the system, but it is what the system can do to connect me to a person, different than I am now, that lived in a different place at a different time.

And it is the music that does that, that reaches inside, past my physicality, to affect me in a way not describable with words, in a way more base than hunger and longing. I could get just as much from my iPhone and earbuds, because it is about the music for me, but I do like having a simple hifi, to be my transporter, a time machine, like an old film projector that plays back family movies, snippets of those that have grown up, moved on, passed away. But I digress.

The Setup:

This setup hasn't changed much in years, of which I am proud. I have been able to stay a course to keep it simple, to make the exploration about music and emotion, not technology and measurement (although I respect that, and anyone's search for the elusive limited perfection).

Two boxes, a pair of speakers, one set of interconnects and a pair of speaker wires. And an ethernet cable. I have had the Marantz Streamer / CD Player since 2020 and it has been so good, bringing no attention to itself. I use it 99.999% for streaming. As streaming catalogs have grown, I just don't find myself thinking about CDs right now. But anything can happen.

I have the Marantz wired to the network using a Netgear Powerline device to connect to the router over the wall outlets. One less wireless device in the house.

I take the variable outputs of the Marantz into the W4S amplifier via a Blue Jeans LC-2 interconnect. I had a LAT interconnect prior, but it wasn't long enough, so I am trying the LC-2 and I think it is great. The W4S amp, which I have had for about 15 years, is four channels and I am currently using the 250 watt channels to drive the Metas. At some point I'll try the 125 watt channels to see which I prefer. I drive the speakers with LAT International wires, which I have had for about 20 years. I used to run the Gallo Ref 3, but moved them into another system (A Quiet Place).

I like the Metas, they are a bit of a chameleon, a small speaker that, under the right conditions with the right placement, can pretend to be a much larger speaker if the room will allow it. They also hide the sound of their enclosure pretty well. They sit in the living room which is open to the kitchen. The total square footage of both rooms is about 820 square feet, which may seam like too much for the Metas, but our house is very quiet, measuring right around 25dB, so music at 65dB feels plenty dynamic, and the Metas can handle that well enough.

I could be tempted to say I am done for now, but I think with the size of the room, I want to explore adding very minor room treatment. CostCo has some Artika panels, so I might get a couple packs and put some panels in a corner. Our place is very sparse, and I like that, helps keep my mind clear, but that means there is an appreciable amount of reverberation and echo. I'll be thinking about it.

Previous Description from 2020 (before the move):

A modest hifi - a Network / CD player directly driving an amplifier. I'm really enjoying how the Marantz and W4S work so well together without a preamp.

I got away from hifi a few years ago because over time, I had strayed from an essentialist philosophy to enjoy music, to pursue better, an enemy of enjoyment. I thought about extended bass. Room response, better. I bought another black box, then another black box. I made it overly complicated - subwoofer processor, more amplifier channels, more cables, more remotes. I was listening more to the representation of the music, instead of the music itself, so I lost my enjoyment, and listened less and less. So when I got really busy in life, the hifi went into boxes and storage for several years - I had lost site of what had mattered, the enjoyment of the music.

Being away from it helped me think differently when I came back to it. I'm still just as busy, but I realize that what I get from emotionally investing in the performance of the artists, allowing them to affect me, is time well spent. The pursuit of better only distracted me from being present in the performance. So after doing some listening and trialing and thinking, I pulled out all the extra black boxes to distill it back down to essentials.

In the comments, I put a bit of a running log about my thoughts along the way. Here is what I have removed:

Velodyne SMS-1 processor
Musical Fidelity x10 tube buffer
Sony HD FM tuner
Bryston B60R
All the associated cabling (4 interconnects), power cords (2 cords, 2 warts), and remotes (3)
Read more...

Room Details

Dimensions: 25’ × 20’  Large
Ceiling: 9’

Components Toggle details

    • Marantz ND8006
    • Wyred 4 Sound Multi Channel
    Class D Ice 4 channel amp, 2 x 125W, 2 x 250W into 8 ohms
    • KEF LS50 Meta
    Ubiquitous for good reasons.
    • Blue Jeans Cable LC-2
    • LAT International SS-1000 Mk2
    • NETGEAR Powerline 2000

Comments 23

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Owner
I placed the Metas unconventionally. As the room is a living space first, with traffic across the front wall (entry to a bedroom in one corner and a hallway to the garage in the other), I wanted placement to have the least obstruction to natural movements in the house. But I didn't just place them for the convenience of space use as, of course, I want the best sound I can achieve within the restraints. I started with the Cardas speaker placement equation which is clever because it relies only on the width of the front wall. But most calculators put the speakers far off the front wall, into the space.

I divided the Cardas numbers by 1/2 and 1/4 which gave me additional positions that I could trial to find a compromise between usable space and smooth sound. The right speaker is placed at the recommended distance from the side wall, but 1/2 the distance to the front wall. The left speaker is 1/4 the distance to the front wall and 1.5x the distance to the side wall. Looks a bit strange from straight ahead (but there isn't anywhere to sit in the room that is straight ahead to the hifi), but not so noticeable otherwise. This placement means no one is going to accidentally walk into a speaker in the dark nor with an armful of groceries. 

Soundwise, peaks and valleys aren't so conspicuous. It seems good enough. I think the asymmetric placement breaks up reinforced frequencies, and fills in the troughs a little bit at the expense of ideal reinforcement, which is rarely ideal because ideal placement is often unachievable. 

moto_bruce

Owner
I bought a large cutting board at a local discount retailer to put under the amp, since it is on the floor. I'd prefer to get in the shelf, but it doesn't fit. I didn't do it for sonic reasons, simply to get the amp off the floor which keeps dust out of it, and makes it easier to vacuum. A positive consequence of keeping the amp on the floor is that I don't have to buy longer speaker cable.

I think at some point, I'll probably want to get the amp somewhere other than the floor, hidden away to that the system disappears more into the room. But I am not ready to shop for more furniture.

moto_bruce

Owner
toro3, Thanks for the complement, very nice of you. I looked at resistormag.com and what a cool site, so much to dig into. Thank you for the link. I really like the listening space features, looking at what people put together and how they use their music systems.

I like how the spaces are photographed - there is an effort to get the feel of what it is like to be present. The feel of a space is so important, as it can either ease or agitate, which affects the listening, at least for me. I think I have to want to be in the space first, before I can want to be there to listen. Which is what I have to keep working on with our two systems. I would like them to disappear into the house, yet still perform, but that is a difficult task.

moto_bruce

I was reading your “bloviating” description of your system and was thinking, “man, this writing reminds of that one virtual system!” 

I then scrolled down and it all made sense. 

Your thoughts, approach, annd vibe are so well balanced. If Resistor Magazine (https://www.resistormag.com/) was still active, I’d encourage you to be a contributor. 

toro3

Owner
New room and lifestyle changes mean a new way of using this system, and with that, a change in components. I added a new photo of the system on a bookshelf with the LS50 Metas. I listen to this hifi when I am working at the counter in the kitchen and to play light golden age jazz when we have friends over for coffee, food, etc. We have music frequently in the house, and it is good for everyone, helps keep us off screens.

I still want to keep it simple. I've had some reinforced goodness by keeping it simple in hifi. The rewards are more music, more exploration, more enjoyment, more thought.

I moved the Gallos to another room into a second system that I put together last year, and I will put up another virtual system to describe, along with reasons to move the Gallos.

moto_bruce

Owner
toro3 Thank you for your note. Flattering that you thought of my hifi after such a long time. I am still in the sport, but probably owe some form of update, although with this system, little has changed. It delivers so much of what I want out of music that I just don't think about improvements. Maybe that means I'm not a real audiophile! I'll try to get an update up in the next couple of weeks, along with a new profile for a second hifi that I put together earlier this year.

moto_bruce

@moto_bruce I had forgotten about your system until this morning. While drinking coffee at 4:00 AM I suddenly remembered and began searching in Virtual Systems. I’m glad I found, and appreciate the thoughts you shared, but realized you hadn’t contributed for more than 5 years. I hope the journey continues to be pleasant and zen-like for you.

toro3

Owner
These last few months of streaming classical music have been very nice - having access to a gigantic classical catalog in hi-res has spoilt me. I've also spent more time placing the speakers more precisely, so I think my system is a wrap.

My latest effort is in upgrading the visuals. It is nice to have a comfortable, easy on the eyes view while listening, so I'm putting my mind to it. The room is reasonably sized, but it serves several purposes - its my studio, my listening room and it sometimes serves as a gathering space for friends. Over the next few weeks / months, I'll be making an effort to minimize the space and make it more efficient for all its functions.

moto_bruce

Owner
A change, but not because I was hunting for anything. My Bryston B60R developed an occasional disconnect to its remote sensor on the front panel, so there were time during which the remote wouldn't work. Since the Marantz has a variable output, I tested it with the Bryston then decided to swap out the Bryston with the W4S temporarily as I send it in for servicing.

I was very surprised by the sound. I had never felt I was lacking with the Bryston, it really is a superlative little amp. But the power of the W4S immediately made itself known - it drives the lowest octave through the Gallos nicely - the room and space of different recordings come through beautifully. It feels like I've added a subwoofer, without having to work through the challenges of integration.

I think the two, Marantz and W4S are a nice combination, sometimes boxes like each other. I can't say why. There is one less box for the signal to pass through (the Bryston's preamp), although it would be hard to argue that the variable output of the Marantz is as strong and steady as the Bryston's pre. But perhaps the W4S has a higher input impedance that works well with the Marantz? Who knows. I just know that it does sound lovely, full, deep, and the sound of the room, that feeling of the space of the music that I really appreciate, is present without all the complication.

And a nice consequence is...no remotes! Well, technically my laptop is a remote, but I'm usually working at it anyhow.

moto_bruce

Owner
ejonbli - Glad to hear your thoughts, thank you. I think in my earlier stereo days, there was a record player, a cassette player, and a tuner. I'm looking at streaming as a (mostly) better FM tuner with more choices, control and flexibility and for that, streaming is working well. I work / study from home and simplicity and convenience allow me to have music and not be distracted from work.

I agree with you that I am not going to rely on streaming to keep a library for me. It is a convenience but not a panacea. Licensing agreements are periodically up for renegotiation, property ownership changes, etc. These can (and will) affect what is available. So while I enjoy the (for now) convenience of streaming, I know I shouldn't rely on it singly, that if there is music I love, I need to have my own physical copy and stay in control of what I can listen to. It is a new balance I need to find.

And I do regret shedding my small library, for similar reasons to you - hard to find, expensive to replace. Most of what I had, I really listened to. I'll try to do the same now, buy only what I'll listen to and this is where streaming can be a help. I'm mostly into classical now days, so I can listen to different renditions and recordings and decide which particular one I prefer as opposed to reading a review or having to buy to try.

Again, thanks for your comments, you gave me more to think about. 

moto_bruce

I really like your system and the philosophy behind it.  I would love to do something similar, i.e. remove much physical media and put it in a black box.

However, to be honest, I do not know how much I value the physical collection I have put together.  I have sold records in bulk before and regretted it.  I ended buying some back, unfortunately in worse condition than my originals and more expensive too.  So don't want to go there again.

What I do know is that I can't rely on the likes of Spotify, what is in their library today maybe gone or changed tomorrow.  So much on internet radio though as you say, so it's very easy to listen to that all day and enjoy the gems you come across that way.

You and your system has given me food for thought though.  Many thanks and enjoy the music.

ejonbli

Owner
So one of the mistakes I made besides getting too concerned about numbers and room response, was donating all of my CDs and SACDs when I boxed up my hifi for storage. I'm not a collector, so I didn't have many, maybe 200-300ish, but they were carefully chosen and I really enjoyed them. Several would get a lot of play, such as Angela Hewitt, Chopin: Nocturnes and Impromptus on SACD, played on her now (unfortunately) destroyed Fazioli concert grand. Love that disc.

There are a couple different ways ahead. First, with internet radio, there is so much accessible, that I don't feel an urgency to start buying, acquiring, assembling a collection of sorts. I could try to go and find some of the discs I used to have and re-acquire them. That is certainly an acceptable approach, and I'll likely find some of those (like Hewitt). But CDs are so inexpensive now, that perhaps taking more chances on what I don't know about may prove to be more rewarding and horizon-expanding.

I love golden age jazz and classical music, and while I know a little bit about some to it, I am mostly an ignoramus. I think that is a good place to be, because I don't have to concern myself with finding the best recorded or remastered version of anything. I can concentrate on the greatest performances, and artists.

When I was younger, I used to have almost all of the Time-Life Blues CD collection. It was incredible. There are some performances in that set that are from another planet. Howlin' Wolf. Muddy Waters. I'm sure they weren't recorded with the best microphones in the best studios with the best anything. But, WOW. The energy, the passion, the performance. Those aspects trump it all, regardless of CD, SACD, vinyl, hi-res stream, or even the gear its played through. It's about the music and the performance, not the format and gear.

But. Format, right now, tells me that there are many opportunities in CD that just didn't exist before, and I am listening to one of them -  Martha Argerich Complete Recordings on Deutsche Grammophon. 48 CDs for $110? Crazy wonderful.

moto_bruce

Owner
toro3 - thanks for the kind words.

It was very nice to come home tonight, flip one switch on the Bryston, press one button on the remote to the network player, then in a few seconds, music. Less complicated, Less distracted. 

Better.

moto_bruce

Well said throughout - eloquent, really. Your log of thoughts mirror some of my own feelings. 

“Listening is nicer when they eyes are at peace.”

“I had strayed from a minimalist philosophy of an elegant simplicity to enjoy music, to pursue better, an enemy of enjoyment.”

Two black boxes and two speakers with good cable management; sounds like Nirvana. 

Interesting how that works, right!? Keep typing, sir. You’re being some great food-for-thought to the table.

toro3

Owner
I've updated the description as I think I am done trying to figure it all out. After a little bit of listening to the amps, I've decided that all the extra power of the W4S isn't necessary and it adds another box to the hifi. Sonically, I prefer the Bryston, not that the W4S is bad, at all, it is a great amplifier. But I don't listen to music so loudly, so the extra power isn't necessary (I must remember the essentials). I'll get a better photograph up in the next couple of days to show the final state.

I've learned a lot in this process. These realizations only apply to me, and it is only opinion, but here I go:

- I need to know what better means for me. I thought it meant more bass extension, better control of the room response. More power. I was wrong. Better for me was what I already had - uncomplicated, involving, musical, and a mind that is free from GAS.

- Pertaining to specs, at some point, better may just be an illusion. There is always a cost of better and at some point, it is a massively diminishing return. And there may be tradeoffs. I found that when I got bass extension it cost me delicacy. And simplicity, because I had too many boxes to turn on and too many remotes.

- When it isn't quite coming together, simpler is better.

- Music matters. Don't let gear get in the way. This one is tough, because we are audio people and place value on fidelity. There is a balance that each of us needs to strike between being true to the idea of an involving musical experience (good gear) and being sucked into making things technically better (more gear or more expensive gear) at the expense of music.

So I think my next upgrade is time - more time to listen and enjoy music.

moto_bruce

Owner
I received and installed the ND8006, so I removed the FM tuner as I no longer need it. This is my first experience with streaming to my hifi (I've streamed with other smaller bluetooth speakers, but not my hifi), and I like it a lot.

Next, I'll be listening to the amps to decide what I like best. It would be really nice to be down to two boxes, the network / cd player and the integrated amp. Simple, undistracted, but the listening will tell me.

Listening is nicer when they eyes are at peace. Right now, things are a bit of a mess, everything out on the floor, but as I figure it all out, I'll be able to get it put away. The speakers will stay out since I like the sound of speakers in space, the rest needs to disappear.

moto_bruce

Owner
Thanks birdfan. Originally, I was trying to do my own version of the Gallo sub amp, in an effort to add some room correction. I think one of the problems with my approach is that it didn't capitalize on the clever design of the Gallos - the dual voice coils. I think I ended up with content coming out of the subs that wasn't in perfect phase. I was really surprise when I went back to just the B60, how much more dynamic the music played. I suppose it wasn't the best idea to try to come up with a better solution than the guy who designed the system...

But yes. Music.

moto_bruce

I love and appreciate your comments about obsessing vs enjoying. I've been there too. I have the Gallo 3.1's and given the frustrations you've had with getting the bottom locked in I can't help but to recommend that you keep your eyes open for the Gallo Subwoofer amp. I generally run two 12 inch subs with any full range speakers I have in the mix. Once I found the Gallo Sub amp, that all changed. Very cohesive and it truly digs very deep with very little problems with integration. The amp is very versatile with all the necessary adjustments. You should be able to find one at around $300-$400, but patience will be needed. 

Cheers and enjoy the music !!!

birdfan

Owner
After several attempts to equalize the room and create a smooth reach down to 20 Hz, I've decided (for now) that effort is really just getting in the way. I've spent more time listening for room response and not music. How foolish am I? By trying to engineer a more accurate rendition (at least on paper), I have made it irrelevant by not enjoying music.

I've learned a few things. First, through the multiple attempts, I always felt like I was waiting for something to happen and it never did. It was a repeated slight let-down. I was doing some reading on filters and realized (again) that anything I add in an effort to "improve," brings with it all of its own problems. Less is best.

I put in Yim Hok-Man Virtuoso Pieces of Chinese Percussion (CD layer as my player won't read the SACD layer, yet) which is a fantastically energetic performance. I listened with all the gear to make the sub-octave then with it all removed, only through the Bryston.

On paper, the Bryston at 60wpc, shouldn't be able to keep pace with 125wpc into the full range (bypassing the SMS-1) and another 550wpc into the sub octave (through the SMS-1). On paper. But I didn't notice, because the music was so much more powerful, present and surprising and involving. I knew as soon as the first track started playing.

So the buffer and subwoofer processor are out. I'll listen to the three amps (the W4S is 4 channel with two different pairs of ice modules, so I'll give them both a listen) to decide which I like best, but my initial feel is that I like the Bryston.

moto_bruce

Owner
linie01 thank you. Yes, life without music is...not right.

moto_bruce

Life without music is a total drag.  So glad to hear you plugged in again.  Enjoy!!!

linnie01

Owner
Last night, I also played with the Cardas speaker position calculator. I've uploaded an image to show the new position. Definitely makes a difference, music feels more anchored in the room, more cohesive.

moto_bruce

Owner
I've added an image of the wiring behind all the components (pile of wires). I'll be working on cleaning this up over the next few weeks / months. The big offenders are the silver / grey interconnects which are each 6 ft long. There are 4 back there, that's a lot of cable. These were the IC's I bought at a big box store to get the buffer and SMS-1 connected into everything else, meant as an inexpensive stop gap to get everything running, so they served a good purpose.

moto_bruce

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