Not bad Mike!

mburnstein October 31, 2005 03:58

Mike, this is exactly why I'm hesitant to hear your system. Talk about seductive...[insert grin here]

islandear October 31, 2005 00:05

DarTZeel Preamp
Battery Power....WOW!!!

an update on the darTZeel preamp.

a week ago i retrieved the darTZeel (pre-production) preamp from the distributor. i am still breaking in my 2 darTZeel NHB-108 amps (another 10 days to go) so this last week i've been investigating the internal phono stage of the dart pre; trying to put a few hours on it and wanting to compare it to my Lamm LP2 phone stage. when i previously had the dart pre i only listened briefly to the phono stage and my comparisons were were quite limited.

there were a few challenges i had to get my answers. first, some deep background.

my long-term reference cartridge has been the vdH Colibri XCP 8.5mv output. i have always loved the clarity, naturalness and explosiveness of this cartridge. over the last couple of years as my room and system changed; i found that the balance of the Colibri XCP had made many of my favorite recordings too edgy for my tastes. i had gone from my Tenor OTL's to the Tenor Hybrid amps; from my old very damped room to my new very live room, from my old forgiving Kharma Exquisites to the VR9's.......my system was much more alive and told me more but was unforgiving of the Colibri's vividness. so after playing around with the Colibri and trying different setup approaches i tried the Dynavector XV-1s. the XV-1s had a much lower gain (.24mv) but was much more forgiving.....i gave up some of the excitement of the Colibri but more of my music was enjoyable than with the Colibri.

during this same time i had been using the darTZeel amps on and off. one significant issue was that the darTZeel was not an ideal match for my Placette passive and Jena Labs switchbox. i did not get the gain with that combo that i had got with the Tenor Hybrids and the Placette. the darTZeel design without global negative feedback and lower overall gain still worked with the .85mv output of the Colibri but was quite marginal with the XV-1s at .24mv output. there were not only gain issues but also impedence issues when using my Placette.

in any case i had been enjoying the XV-1s thru the Tenors and Placette and also thru the darTZeel amps and Placette (although with less dynamics and gain).

then at RMAF, a friend offered to allow me to try his ZYX Universe cartridge (also .24mv output) as a change of pace to the Dynavector XV-1's. To properly audition the .24mv output ZYX i did re-install my Tenor's 10 days ago so would have enough gain to properly hear it. compared to the Dynavector i found the Universe to be less lush but more energetic, similar in some ways to the Colibri but more buttoned down.

fortunately, last Saturday i found out i could again try the dart pre so i drove to Portland and picked it up. i then removed the Tenors and reinstalled the dart amps and installed the dart pre. the dart pre only has the proprietary 'zeel' outputs active so i had no choice of amps. the ZYX Universe remained and during the last week i listened to the Universe thru the dart pre and dart phono stage. the Dart phono stage had plenty of gain for the Universe.

sorry for the long explaination; but without that background; the following wouldn't make much sense (it may still not).

this brings me to last night; the challenge......how to compare the Lamm LP2 phono stage and the dart pre internal phono stage. i friend came over yesterday about 4pm to lend his ears and moral support.

i found that when using the internal dart phono stage (which is listed at 62db of gain) i had plenty of gain for both the ZYX Universe and the Dynavector XV-1s. OTOH when playing the Lamm LP2 thru the dart pre and dart amps; there was not enough gain to properly judge the performance of the ZYX or Dynavector.

so.....if i wanted to compare the two phono stages; i would have to install my trusty Colibri with it's .85mv output; this would allow the Lamm to have plenty of gain thru the dart combo (when using the dart pre as strictly a line stage).

i actually removed the ZYX and installed another of my cartridges (a Colibri XGW .65mv output) first...but had some sort of hum issue; then i did install my Colibri XCP and did a rough (5 minute) setup.

first, into the Lamm. very nice; with plenty of gain the Lamm and Colibri made a beautiful combination......probably the best overall vinyl performance i had yet heard.

the playlist;

Buena Vista Social Club, 'Candela' Classic 45 version.

For Duke, 'Take the A Train', M&K DTD.

It Might As Well Be Swing, Sinatra/Basie, 'Fly Me To The Moon', Reprise original pressing.

Hasten Down The Wind, Linda Ronstad, 'Crazy', Asylum

Cantate Domino, 'Julsang', Proprius.

The Royal Ballet, all of side 1, Classic 33rpm reissue.

we eventually played many more but these were played initially on the ZYX, then the Colibri with the Lamm, and then the Colibri thru the internal dart phono stage.

i had not played the Colibri thru the dart pre before; i now heard the magic of the Colibri that had captivated me for three years. the naturalness of the dart pre, combined with the dart amps and Lamm was all there, similar in dynamics to the Tenor/Placette but less edgy and with more body and transparency. the Colibri was doing things i had not heard from the Universe in terms of overall naturalness and clarity; it sounded effortless....alive.

we now switched to the internal dart phono stage; things were the same but better somehow; much more microdynamic, lower noise floor, more expanded soundstage. overall, the complete picture was better.....not night and day...but better. even though the Lamm has tubes and the dart does not; you would have a hard time choosing which phono stage had tubes. the Lamm may have been slightly 'darker'......but tonality asnd textures were at least as good with the dart phono stage. the Colibri thru the dart phono stage was just a little more 'compelling' and involving.

remember, the dart phono stage had maybe 15 hours on it at this point, was a pre-production version, and had loading at 100 ohms (the Colibri likes 400-500 ohms ideally....the Lamm is loaded at 400 ohms)......and we were listening to the in AC mode.

at this point my friend turns to me and says...."ok Mike, you can sell the Lamm with no regrets"......which had been the question of the night. the Lamm sounded great.....but the Dart was a little better.

it was now about 6:30pm last night and my friend needed to get home. i suggested that we try battery mode on the dart pre. i cautioned that i had only tried it a couple of times but there was some sort of 'gremlin' in this unit that was not sorted out and in battery mode it was somehow outputting DC and would likely blow fuses in the amps within 5 minutes.....but it would be a spectacular 5 minutes and it was not that big an deal to change the fuses.

i had only tried the battery mode briefly on digital but i guessed that it might actually make more difference on the phono stage.

so i carefully turned the pre volume down, turned off the amps, turned off the pre, unplugged the pre, turned the pre back on, waited 90 seconds, and turned the amps back on....so far, so good. i would avoid using the remote control or switching anything so as to avoid anything that might send out DC.

i put 'Fly Me To The Moon' on the Rockport, dropped the needle, turned up the volume and turned down the lights.

from the first note there was something very different; in fact before the first note you could tell.....the 'air' was different between and before the note.....it was more there. Frank's voice was more than a voice, he was there. i was not thinking in 'sonic checklist' terms.....more in human terms. dis-belief was suspended......for about 4 more hours it was suspended. my friend didn't need to leave after all.

i assumed the fuses would blow after about 5 minutes; i kept cringing whenever i would turn the volume up or down. we played another cut, then another. there was never any problem. i would just turn the volume down when cueing and there was no noise, hum or ANYTHING. dead silence.

the listening was simply one 'Oh My God' after another. in battery mode the dart pre phono easily stomps anything i have personally heard in many ways. first, it is soo quiet that everything is just soo effortless. there is no strain. music just flows. dynamics, both micro and macro surpass anything i have heard. microdynamic action makes things so alive and vivid. the tonality and textural nuance can only be described as like 'life' or lifelike.

we played 'Nojima Plays List'...the Mephisto Waltz. playing this music on a system with full frequency capability and thru this gear brought the piano fully to life in front of us. i don't have the words to describe it. if you have heard a concert grand piano then you know how it sounds....that is how it sounded.

we played The Royal Ballet, side 1. i can only say WOW and double WOW. the orchestra came completely to life in the room. i get goosebumps just thinking about it.

Blues (Muddy Water's Folk Singer), Rock (Neil Youngs Greatest Hits), Folk (Lorna Hunt, All in One Day)......everything was just really silly good.

after 4 hours of battery mode my friend did go home; i then listened to digital in battery mode for another 2 hours; then this morning listened to digital in battery mode for a couple more hours. same basic things......although not quite to the same degree as the phono stage is more significant to the vinyl perfromance.

battery mode dramatically lowers the noise floor, dramatically increases dynamics, and really brings an effortlessness to music that has to be heard before you could appreciate what it does.

i expect healthy skepticism to this post; until a few people are able to hear what this does for themselves in battery mode that is reasonable.

i still need to re-install both the Dynavector and ZYX to see how they compare in battery mode; hopefully i'll ge to that in the next few days. my new dart pre should be here by late November hopefully.

i type slow and i've already lost too much of my Sunday to this.....but i wanted to share my enjoyment.

mikelavigne October 30, 2005 20:34

Cello; it is too bad RMAF was over so quick and we missed each other (same issue with Islandear). that having fun stuff can be hard work.

next year for sure we'll connect (assuming there is a next RMAF).

BTW, i have been listening to a mutual friend's ZYX Universe for the last week or so....very interesting.

mikelavigne October 30, 2005 17:45

Lohanimal; yes, the OSIM message chair has it's place. I have used one and they do make one feel brand new. OTOH they are not ideal for extended listening sessions (up to 10 hours straight) as they have 'hard' spots. Also, as they are mechanical they can 'break' and make noise.

my chair; the 'Relax-the-Back' store zero gravity chair is designed for almost permanent use. The 'Zero Gravity' chair was originally designed by NASA for space flights to minimize body stress during long flights; and minimize stress on the body at launch and re-entry.

This chair distributes the weight along the entire length of the body for zero stress on your spine; doctors perscribe this chair for patients to use that cannot sleep laying down.

My particular chair uses visco-elactic foam that forms to your body with heat to eliminate points of stress. My chair also has a very narrow top section for minimal acoustic influence. the head rest (also visco-elastic foam) keeps my head out from the top section and both the head rest and top section curve away from my head; which reduces the acoustical influence.

there is almost zero difference between the sound i get with a low back chair and my chair. most other high back chairs (including the OSIM message chair) have wide backs and head supports that have a 'cupping' effect and really affect sonic performance.

i have spent 20 hours straight in this chair (excepting bathroom visits) with no back strain or stiffness. in fact; if something does hurt; an hour or two in the chair usually fixes it.

i have had my chair for 5 years and they will likely bury me on it.

mikelavigne October 30, 2005 14:05

Islandear is right on the mark ... we're all doing what we need to do with music ... which turns out to be quite the same thing, but with different approaches. Mike's system, guarded by safe retreat (which centuries ago was referred to as the "beatus ille," again a designation for that safe retreat that regenerates and soothes), can do no less than transport effortlessly. As for an island in the NW and being able to watch shipping traffic ... I'm now suffering pangs of envy. Oh well, the overseeding is working too well, so I need to attend to the lawn this afternoon. I'm forunate ... I don't give classes on Fridays.

arkprof October 28, 2005 16:44

Nrchy, it's amazing what a bit of space can do for one's perspective. After 10 years on island I realize that the entire world is mad...whoa, now I'm starting to sound like the Peter Finch character in 'Network'.

Arkprof, I empathize with you. Nearly twenty years ago I put in a stint as an administrator in the largest public university system in the US. Talk about layers of bureaucracy! At the end of the day (long days as I recall) I inevitably needed my music and some other salve to purge all the toxins. Despite moving 1500 miles north and relocating in a garden spot I still need my music and accompanying salve...I just enjoy them more!

islandear October 28, 2005 16:39

Islandear wow, I was contented living on a quiet side street. I have seen lots of movies of west coast homes built right on the water, and thought it an admirable fantasy. Now I want to get off this quiet street and disappear...

nrchy October 28, 2005 13:58

Get yourself a massage reclining chair by OSIM - the ultimate chair for the ultimate system!

lohanimal October 28, 2005 11:04

Mike, not to worry ... your listening room is quite impressive, certainly defined by quality ... appearance and construction. No doubt about this. I think most of us would love to have a dedicated space like yours, but that doesn't seem to be the case for most audio enthusiasts. As for your system, even in my dreams I couldn't imagine owning what you have. I KNOW that it has to be overwhelming.

The "de-stress" needs ... I understand completely. I do the same, though I also use music to block out the world as I do prep work for the univ experience. My work world is probably less stressful than yours, but it appears we're both regaining balance in the same way.

Enjoy the music!

arkprof October 28, 2005 09:14

.
Mike / Islandear, very thoughtful and nice posts.
.
Mike, sorry we did not catch up with each other at the RMAF in Denver. Time flew by and before I knew it, it was time to go. I will make a point of getting to meet you at the next opportunity and definitely in Denver if you will be attending.
.
Rgds,
Larry
.

cello October 27, 2005 19:33

Islander; you said what i was trying to say; only better. thanks.

out my windows i see a mountian side; it is part of a wilderness area that can never be developed. very peacefull and complimentary to my target listening mindset.

mikelavigne October 27, 2005 13:18

Dalton, i use one small 'can' sitting on the floor behind each speaker with a 15 watt 'soft-white' light bulb (up to 25 watts seems to work fine without shadows that are too intense or sharp). i position the cans behind the speakers equally on both sides so the shadows are equal on both sides.

i bought the cans at a lighting store; about $15 each. the bulbs i bought at Home Depot.

mikelavigne October 27, 2005 13:11

Mike,

I like your idea of putting spot lights behind the speakers to create a more intimate ambiance and listening experience instead of turning the lights off completely as they do in shows. I guess i'm still afraid of the dark after all these years... What are you using to illumine your speakers?

dalton October 27, 2005 01:30

Arkprof comments are interesting. I assume we all aspire to find our spot in the world - what Castaneda called 'enabling' places - and that once we find these spots we are loathe to leave them. Mike clearly illustrates his need to retire from the daily grind and I am in sync with him. I'm a city boy from LA/SoCal and I have always aspired to escape the noise and claustrophobic rush of the megalopolis. My work takes me, on a very regular basis, to LA, SF, NYC and other large burgs; and while I enjoy these places for their culture, entertainment and restaurants I am always happy to get on a plane to return to my island in the NW. I can sit in my listening room, watch the shipping traffic on the Eastern Passage, and not be disturbed by anything louder than birds or an occasional chainsaw. I'm pleased that so many people prefer the city, it means less are trying to find a way to live where I do. And, for the record, I expect it's rather easy to lose oneself in a room like Mike's.

islandear October 26, 2005 20:26

Another vote for K-S cable.

Please start with the speaker cables + power cords combination in your systems, and other combinations afterwards.

Cheers,

Sjmgr

sjmgr October 26, 2005 06:24

Cjfrbw; i agree. my lighting strikes the sweet spot where your brain dedicates most of it's computing power to your hearing; and you are totally relaxed into the music. yet there is enough light to feel comfortable and oriented.

that shot was taken at about 3pm in the afternoon.

i think we were listening to SRV 'Tin Pan Alley' at warp 9.

very tasty.

mikelavigne October 25, 2005 00:39

Arkprof; a question; does 'Arkprof' mean you are an Architectural Professor? if so; then please be gentle with me.

i appreciate that you see your needs (or other's needs) differently than i see mine; and 'you won't like this' is not an issue. any sincere or sufficiently entertaining comments are always welcome.

to my way of thinking; the perfect room for me reflects my view of the ideal.....and no one else's. i manage a retail company with 11 managers and 140 employees.....and work about 55 to 60 hours a week directly with those people. it is constant high energy and constant people interaction. when i get off work many times i need some time for myself....i don't need any interaction.

my home is my oasis from stress; on 4 and 1/2 acres. in my home i have a 'whole house' music system, a dedicated home theatre and a family room with plasma and music system. when i am in the mood for these particular approaches to music or movies then fine.

but for those times when i need to de-stress and really concentrate on the music i have my room in the barn. my sleeping habits are early to rise; my spouse sleeps in. i can get up as early as i like before work and listen as loud as i want without any problem. i like that.

i designed the room to have space for visitors; and more than a few times have had 10 or more at the same time. my wife and son visit me nightly to listen with me. i will agree that my best musical moments are those that are shared.....when you get into a groove and just play cut after cut and everyone is just having a great time. with this room those sessions can happen anytime and never need to end.....since we are not disturbing anyone else.

10 years ago my listening room was in my family room; then i moved to a large den. in both cases the noise of the house compromised my listening environment. i can still have those experiences if i want.

there is no right answer to one's perfect listening environment; it depends on the mood of the moment. i have simply decided to have one place without compromise for when THAT is what i want.

it will be interesting if i feel the same after i retire; my feelings may change when i don't have the stress to solve.....i may be less comfortable with the isolation of my room. i guess i will find out in 10 years or so.

mikelavigne October 25, 2005 00:31

I like the "back of the head" shot. That says just about everything!

cjfrbw October 24, 2005 20:27

Hi, Mikelavigne ... you won't like this, but what if one were ... perhaps somewhat claustrophobic? The components command total respect, and the sound has to be much like, perhaps better than, what one would find in the best listening rooms in the finest hi-end audio shops, but as for being a true in-home listening environment ... I would find myself very unsettled tucked away from life and all that surrounds it. You'll correct me, I'm sure, or perhaps not bother at all, thus offering the ultimate response, but this doesn't bother you?!? All the dollars it took to build your listening room, and yet listening isolated from the world doesn't bother you? I guess not.

If it weren't for this glaring deficiency, I'd trade with you right NOW! I can't, though. My music can watch the street, play against it or with it, turn cooking into an even greater pleasure, allow my table-bound PC to seem less tiresome as it hides in an adjacent room, and turn my smallish 14x22 listening space into rhythm city. I love everything about your music nirvana ... everything ... except that it has chosen to live away from the world ... clearly you could have afforded to integrate these spaces, but you opted for total separation ... music away from life.

I wish you had done otherwise.

arkprof October 24, 2005 19:29

Hi Mike,

Great to hear you're enjoying the new dart gear, the swiss know a thing or two about quality, no doubt about that.

My mistake on the TA cables, I misread the ones you use, ... I know they introduced the MM technology throughout their other lines ... but the Opus benefitted from it since its conception.
Maybe I should give them a call and ask how much it would cost me to have all my favorite artists over for some true music? .... a few million? I might get 50% off if I'm really lucky :) credit to them though, the Opus are a work of art, it's not about cost/performance but about the best out there ... maybe if I win the 649 ... I'll get those live musicians and we can all get together and enjoy some live unamplified music ... might give the rockport a run for it .... :)

Thanks for the kind words on the capitole, I got it used from Francois Lemay, Robert still has the other one ... great piece for the money though ... and I got the anaconda vx for it from Steve (yes, he told me how he went to vinyl after one session at the barn) ... I'm happy to see that you share your enthusiasm with so many other audiophiles who lack the means to go all out in their quest for nirvana.

Any experience with the Rites of Passage from Joule? ... out of curiosity.

I'm sure that I'm not the only one out here who appreciates your posts.

best regards,

Remy

amperidian October 24, 2005 16:00

OB, you have asked me a question 2 different times and for various reasons i had not yet answered you.....my apologies.

i was fortunate that yesterday i again took possesion of the pre-production darTZeel preamp......i drove to Portland and back.....got home at about 7:30pm last night.....plugged it in......and listened until about 3 in the morning. for the first few hours digital, then vinyl until i couldn't keep my eyes open any longer. i got my second wind at about 10;30pm and my third wind about 1:30am.

so my aurial memory is now 'real-time'.

so what the hell do i mean by 'liquidity, palpability, and delicacy' when describing this preamp?

when i say 'this preamp' i mean the pre-production dart pre, the pair of Stereo dart NHB-108 amps, and the BNC cables connecting them. since i can only use the proprietary connection at this time i cannot assign cause and effect between the pre, the amps and the cables.

by 'liquidity' i mean 'liquid' as opposed to 'dry'. real life has a lack of edge; if you close your eyes and concentrate on real life sounds (not reproduced) there is no real edge to sounds, even fingernails on a blackboard have no 'outline' or abrupt starting point. real sounds are not 'dry' and lifeless. real sounds are rendered in a context of 'air' around them; they exist in relation to what else is happening.

an SET amp typically sounds 'liquid'......althought usually at the expense of immediacy and lack of frequency extention and speed. the tube warmth of a typical SET amp does portray a type of liquidity, or lack of 'dryness'. the darTzeel combo's liquidity is more a removal of distortion than an added something. my interpreation of what i hear from the dart pre is that a layer of 'hash' or distortion is removed from the music that leaves that more real liquidity that more closely resembles real life.

the tangible benefits of this lack of distortion or 'liquidity' is more real detail. this is easiest to hear with massed strngs or choral works; where it is easy to tell what is different. whereas previously, these musical events were percieved as 'those musicians or instruments over there'....now they are percieved as that group of players over there singing/playing together but now each 'voice' has a purpose and message. it greatly enhances the musical gestault and draws me into the music. i am listening to an event and not the playback chain with it's own character.

palpability is the sense of realistic size and shape of things; also of true flavor, texture, and action. is there something real connected to that sound? is dis-belief suspended? is there a sense of natural scale and feeling? can i taste it? feel it? am i there?

is it palpable? is it real?

delicacy is simply the ability to complete tiny things correctly; and not obscure or artifically interpret the tiny but all-important heart of acoustic music. when music is delicate......it moves me.

these three issues are connected; the dart combo does these things at another level or two higher than i have yet heard before. at first it is a little disorienting; since some of your reference recordings have such a different feel. but after relaxing into the music i have found that everything is just more real.

mikelavigne October 23, 2005 17:08

Slipknot; i did get the pre-production dart pre back in my room last night......and stayed up listening to vinyl half the night......WOW!

i do have a music 'hangover' this morning but what the hell. i have some Haydn String Quartets playing right now......perfect 'Sunday morning' music (Quatuor Mosaiques Opus 76, Astree CD)......very sweet.....they are playing right here, right now.

more thoughts to follow.

mikelavigne October 23, 2005 15:40

Frank, i have heard the Acapella speakers at shows and was quite impressed. i'm not exactly sure which one's i have heard; but it seems like they were around $50k list price a few years ago. it would be difficult to really judge the Acapella based on my limited exposure.

Mike and Nellie (Audiofederation) have invited me to visit their room in Colorado when it works out and listen to the 'big' Acapella's. so far it has not worked out......i was disappointed that they didn't bring them to RMAF......although i did like the Martin's.

mikelavigne October 23, 2005 15:31

Remy; thanks for the kind comments. please forgive my tardyness with my response......i have been busy and such.

i have purchased (2) darTZeel NHB-108 stereo amps to replace my Tenor Hybrid monoblocks. but it is possible i may keep both sets of amps. the pre-production version of the dart pre that i tried only had the BNC output active; so i was not able to try my Tenors with the new dart pre. when i do get my own fully functional dart pre i will try it with my Valhalla cables and Tenor hybrids; i may like it better than the dart pre/amp combo. in any case, that is my plan. i still love the Tenors. except for the dart amp/pre combo; it is the best amp i have yet heard.

BTW, to be clear; i am using 2 stereo darts in vertical bi-amp configuration on the VR9's.

i have not tried the Dynaudio Arbiter gear.....but it does sound interesting.

are you saying that there is a new Transparent cable above the Opus line? i had not heard anything about that. that must be where the musicians simply arrive at your home and play in your room. for what Transparent might charge for a better cable one might as well employ musicians.

;^)

i always enjoyed the AA Capitol; very musical and non-digital sounding. i did hear the Whest at the Denver show; i could imagine that it might work well with the Capitol.

mikelavigne October 23, 2005 15:20