this even makes me think about trying the NVS isolation shelf between the NVS and the Herzan.

i need to be open minded.

mikelavigne June 28, 2013 14:04

more thoughts about the Herzan active isolation, digital, and footers.

I did not spend enough time comparing the effect on discs and the server dac performance to say which is effected more 'for sure'. but I was quite surprised by the degree of positive effect for the server dac. I had expected the discs to be a bigger deal than the dac.

i am very curious as to how much better the dart pre can sound with footers between it and the Herzan. and i wonder what exactly the A10 U8's are adding and why. it seems like a synergistic combination.

i'm excited by the possibilities that this presents.

mikelavigne June 28, 2013 14:02

I've been thinking about how the digital player/dac might benefit from the Herzan, and how I might combine the dart pre and MPS-5 on top of the Herzan. so last night I tried stacking the Playback Designs MPS-5 on top of the dart pre on top of the Herzan TS-150.

it resulted in a large boost to the digital performance, both with discs and with as a server dac. but more than that, it opened my eyes and ears to a whole other area of possibility as to how to optimize the active isolation.

Herzan with MPS-5 on top of the darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp

I had to work out what method I would use to interface the dart pre and the Playback Designs MPS-5. since the dart pre's top was not compatible with the stock footers on the MPS-5, and the MPS-5 is longer than the dart pre, I had to use other footers. I tried two different footers, some prototype Wave Kinetics A10 U8's, and the production A10 U8's. I found that the production A10 U8's were quite a bit more lively and energetic.

what I realized was that footers ON TOP of the Herzan TS-150 can 'possibly' make a huge positive difference in the performance. this opens up many possibilities for optimizing active isolation that had not occurred to me.

I have just begun this area of investigation. all I know right now is that my current configuration is a big leap in digital performance. but I don't know, for instance, whether adding A10 U8's between the Herzan and the dart pre might not improve the performance of the dart pre for both phono and preamp functions. and how might that work for the MPS-5 above it? might other footers work even better with the Herzan?

i'll play around with this and see where it takes me.

mikelavigne June 28, 2013 13:54

pictures of the TS-150 installed underneath the darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp.

TS-150 under the dart pre from the side view of my rack

TS-150 under the dart pre from the front view of my rack

the TS-140 sits under the NVS turntable on top of the rack.

mikelavigne June 22, 2013 15:18

I've been loving the Herzan active isolation TS-140 under my NVS turntable, so i could not help myself.....earlier this week i ordered the smaller footprint Herzan TS-150 to use under my darTZeel preamp.

it arrived yesterday and last night i installed it under the darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp, and I first listened to digital thru the Playback Designs MPS-5 thru my server. redbook only to begin with.

my hope was that it would bring enough to the digital performance by improving the preamp performance that I can leave it there and not need to stack the pre and digital player, mostly a matter of set-up elegance. my concerns were unwarranted, it's astonishing how much better the digital sounds with the darTZeel pre on the TS-150 instead of my previous isolation/decoupling of choice, the prototype A10 U8's (and they were very good).

objectively the dart pre on the Herzan TS-150 adds a body and weight while increasing speed and agility to the music. it's harmonically richer and more multi-textured. overall focus is better. more impact on the bass, more snap and nuance in the transients. blacker backgrounds, more detail deeper into the noise floor, a bit more bloom and decay, and a bit wider and deeper soundstage. these are mostly small even very small degrees of change.....but musically very significant.

subjectively the emotional content and involvement is greater, more life and energy, more natural and grounded sounding, the music becomes more real, refined, listenable and more experiential. more fun. lots of wows and laughs of wonder.

and that was only redbook.

since my friend Teck visited this week and helped do more speaker adjustments, and I've been enjoying the fresh improvements. Wednesday night I listened to digital the whole night and played these same redbook cuts. so my take on these is very recent.

later last night i switched to dsd, more of the same type improvments......classical dsd simply loves the dart pre on the TS-150. all those subtle small improvements take full advantage of the acoustic purity of classical music.

I can only imagine what a separate TS-150 under the Playback Designs MPS-5 might add to what i'm hearing.

then later last night i switched to vinyl, and so far i'm thinking not to try and describe what i'm hearing with the dart phono stage also benefiting from the TS-150......as what i would say would sound like I've come unglued. ;-)

i have listening visitors scheduled this afternoon and tomorrow afternoon who can try and tether me to the ground so i don't float away. it going to be a fun listening weekend.

mikelavigne June 22, 2013 12:46

hi Teck,

thank you very much for the help with the speaker adjustments in my system. Tuesday night i listened to all my familiar vinyl cuts. last night i spent the whole night listening to digital, to all my regular tracks that i know so well. and i'm blown away by how much more life and vividness the system now has. i would not have believed that it could be that much better.....but it is.

then tomorrow i recieve my second active isolation shelf from Herzan, the TS-150. i'm planning on trying it under my dart preamp, and also under the Playback Designs MPS-5 digital too. i may end up stacking them both on top of the Herzan TS-150 as it has a 330 pound weight capacity.

i'm glad that you were able to help with the system improvements 'prior' to installing the Herzan. it boggles my mind as to what improvements the Herzan can find beyond what i'm now hearing.

crazy, crazy, crazy.

i did not want to say anything until i have really relaxed and listened.....i now have and wow.

thanks.

mikelavigne June 20, 2013 16:48

James,

my Son only made those servers for 6-9 months in 2010 and then stopped. it turned out audiophiles required a bit more hand holding to get their servers sorted out than he had figured. he was too busy personally to give his customers the support that they needed. he still takes care of his clueless dad's server but that is it.

i do think that the whole server approach is getting more simplified and easier for the normal person to figure out, and it's mostly how i now listen to digital. dsd over a server is hard to beat and sounds analog to me to a large degree thru the Playback Designs dac.

and you are most welcome about the turntable mat. i agree that it's a good step up for the NVS.

mikelavigne June 20, 2013 16:10

Mike,
Just been reading through some of the old threads on your system page and wanted to know if you son is still producing music servers. I have a separate DAC and would very much like to be able to load up all my CDs to a server and also Hi-Res for playback through the DAC.
Incidentally I purchased the Speed turntable mat and what a difference it has made to the Wave Kinetics - thanks for passing along that tip.
James

vicks7 June 20, 2013 14:04

"New prototype" arm from Durand? Is this a scoop? I guess even Ferrari keeps building better and better cars.

peterayer June 18, 2013 20:40

Mike,

as usual great to keep up with your journey... from the last visit, you weren't kidding with the improvements..

what i like about the changes after adding the active isolation is the background is really much quieter and you hear a LOT more information into the music, the extra nuances... wow..

the changes to the *new prototype* arm is also interesting....it lets the music through much better than the last time although the active isolation may have helped it along...who know's unless you do an A/B wink wink...

well have fun with the music and nice to see you enjoy just playing music...keep it playing... I'll be back..

For Pradeep....you need the new tone arm... :)

teck5 June 18, 2013 06:06

hi Steve,

thanks.

i read thru your well written explanation about the Minus-K platform. very interesting....and not surprising. thanks for the info.

there are lots of changes in my system since your last visit and i think it's time for you to visit again....let me know when it can work for you.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 17, 2013 17:08

Hi Mike.
Congrats on your choice for the addition of a sub-hertz isolation system under the NVS. An important part of the puzzle.

On a much more limited budget, I've been experiencing a similar improvement while using Minus-K platform under my TD124. Improvements noticed were on the order of improved definition of inner details, improved definition of macro detail, improved imaging (substantial improvements to imaging) and an overall sense of sharper definition against a more silent backdrop. Perhaps, in some ways subtle, yet profound.

Anyway I wrote about it here:
" http://www.theanalogdept.com/minus_k.htm "

I see you've made substantial changes on many levels since my last visit in 2010. Indeed, it looks like a dream system you have assembled and created.

Happy spins.

-Steve

td160 June 16, 2013 17:56

Please, no, LOL! Divorce, split the assets-who knows, but the Bose Wave: NO, I SAY!
Just an interesting thought experiment.
You've got me seriously thinking about a Herzan for my tt. It's direct rim drive, with an air bearing linear tracking arm, and has really benefitted from being on a Symposium Isis stand with ball bearing/magnetic isolation. It's footprint is quite a bit smaller than your NVS, and the TS-150 would fit the bill, should be a bit more affordable than the 140.
The tt is a real giant killer, but I'm intrigued by this uber solution for isolation. Unfortunately outside the US, no sale-or-return is possible, so I'm going to hold my fire for the time being.
Interestingly, the Halcyonics Micro 40 and i4 appear to be nearly twice the price of the Herzan, which is enough as it is.
So it looks like a choice of sticking with the Isis, upgrade to the c$4000 Minus K BM-40, or a big leap to the TS-150.
Btw, just stumped the cash for the Soundsmith Straingauge cart. In love all over again with vinyl, it's my keeper for life.

spiritofmusic June 13, 2013 08:47

Marc,

sure, I have thought about that.....for about 10 seconds.

but then I would likely get a divorce, have to split the assets, and end up with a Bose Wave Radio.

;-)

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 03:33

Mike, what do you think about placing Herzan TS-300's under your spkrs? It would be hellishly expensive with 4 needed, but relative to $200k, maybe not out of proportion. Size and weight tolerance on the TS-300 would work for all 4 towers.
Surely loudspeakers producing vibration as normal function would theoretically benefit most from isolation.

spiritofmusic June 13, 2013 02:08

Peter;

added note to my answer above. i do think that RTR decks can benefit from isolation; i've heard RTR decks on Wave Kinetics A10-U8's and there was a benefit. but it's not going to be to the extent that a turntable can benefit.

i do think the smaller form factor RTR decks will get more relative benefit that the larger master recorders.

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 00:10

Peter,

i do expect at some point to have at least one more Herzan unit in my system, likely one without the automatic leveling since only a tt or transport really needs that.

i'd likely get one with a smaller footprint that would fit on my smaller lower shelves and then try it in a number of places.

as far as my RTR's; i doubt it. my Studer A-820's do not have bottoms that lend themselves to tables or even the floor. and the way tape heads interact with the tape the degree of benefit of isolation is much less. this is one of those areas where i've come to understand why tape sounds different that vinyl. it's because of the feedback affecting the vinyl to a huge degree and not the tape. of course, the bass on tape will be more linear, and you won't get the distortion on the tape so things are more solid, and images on tape are separated better. all issues that the Herzan resolves for the vinyl.

the Herzan is a truth machine and teaches me new things daily. you eliminate a source of distortion and can actually see what is causing what.

mikelavigne June 13, 2013 00:04

hi Mike,

i think you would like what the Herzan does in your system under one of your turntables.

i look forward to a (i hope soon) visit from you as always.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 12, 2013 23:54

Marc,

as far as age of a tt design and how that matters, mostly i am referring to how the Rockport tonearm compares to current tonearms. in 1995 the Rockport linear tracker was far superior to the alternatives.....in my personal opinion. today, it is only very very good.

clearly the Rockport air suspension was state of the art for electron microscopes in the mid-90's, now it's not.

i do agree that the plinth/platter/motor was ahead of it's time; but now there are a number of competitive one's.

cars (race or street) are now asked to do much more technically, it's no longer good enough for a race car to be fast; one must do it a certain way as a race car, and street cars are now much safer and cleaner. so cars now are simply more advanced.

i did not do much direct comparisons with the Herzan. hopefully as time goes by those direct comparisons with other approaches will happen. Herzan provides lots of science on their web site that does address comparative approaches.

i tired the Halcyonics active isolation in 2005 on my Grand Prix Audio Monaco decoupling stand and it worked spactacularly. so yes; it will work with an isolation stand. it simply will work better with a solid stand.

a wall mounted stand would work great for the Herzan if it is stout enough for it's 70 pounds plus the weight of a turntable.

mikelavigne June 12, 2013 23:50

Mike, Have you considered getting two more Herzan units for your amps or even your R2Rs?

peterayer June 12, 2013 22:00

Congrats on the Herzan, looks very interesting and it is one that I have not heard of before. Thanks for bringing this product to my attention.
Thanks for your kind words on my system page.
Long overdue for a visit to the Barn.
Take care,

rugyboogie June 11, 2013 12:57

Mike, an excellent analysis of the differences. Although I'm not sure that the age of items is necessarily that relevant. For instance, in the area of supercars even though material science has improved power to weight ratio, the inclusion of traction controls etc has taken the 'excitement' factor out of driving; many driving and even Formula One afficionados prefer the cars of the mid-90's to the current day.
So, the Rockport could still be totally competitive with your NVS despite the 15 yr age gap. But I understand you feeling the NVS has taken a march.
What other platforms did you investigate? Vibraplane, Minus-K etc? The Minus-K esp. seems to perform in a very similar way to the Herzan. Not sure what those '6 axes of movement' are.
Do you feel the Herzan could work on a stand already incorporating it's own isolation: I use the Symposium Isis which uses constrained layer shelves with ball bearing/magnetic isolation per tier.
Or woul I be better off placing the Herzan on a static tt wall shelf, it providing the only isolation method?

spiritofmusic June 10, 2013 07:14

Bill,

yes, i've decided i'm going to stick with this 'stereo' stuff, it's fun.

;-)

best regards,

mikelavigne June 10, 2013 04:40

Mike- I'm glad you are finally getting serious about your stereo system. :)
Love it!
Best,
Bill Hart

whart June 10, 2013 04:16

excellent Mike!...I personally do think that it was worth the effort...unfortunately my isolation stuff did not work to improve....but then again mine was not active or 12k either....but all mechanical and awkward..

good for you now if i can come up with 12k to play with one of these i may give it a shot ...

Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward

lharasim June 10, 2013 01:28