I'm intrigued as to where the combination of NVS/Telos/Herzan stands in comparison with your previous reference Rockport. It seems that with the addition of the Herzan you have substituted the final component of the Rockport combination that you had previously, ie full isolation.
I do realise this q is a little unfair since it's, what, a couple of years since you replaced the Rockport, but I'm sure you've got a pretty good memory of it's sonic 'fingerprint'.
It seems that the NVS/shelf ($45000), Telos w.sapphire plate ($20000) and Herzan ($12000), is taking the combination into at least the ball park of Rockport prices.

hi Marc,

first of all, when i moved on from the Rockport to the NVS i had only heard a prototype NVS, i overall slightly preferred the NVS and the Durand Tonearms. it did things the Rockport seemed not able to do. yet the Rockport also had it's attractions. we did a comparison of simply the noise floor between cuts and the NVS was slightly quieter than the Rockport....and did a little more space. yet the Rockport was and is a magnificent tt, and i wish i could have kept it. it excels at everything. but it was designed in the early 90's.

now that was almost 3 years ago. the NVS is better than it's prototype, and the Durand Tonearm is now the Telos, even the Telos with the Sapphire cartridge plate. i now use the Durand record weight, and of course, here is the Herzan active isolation.

there is no doubt that the Herzan active isolation exceeds the passive air suspension of the Rockport. i think i prefer the Durand Record Weight to the vacuum hold-down on the Rockport. the linear tracking arm was where i felt the Rockport was the least outstanding, and the Telos/Sapphire is on a whole different level, and i would say the motor/drive difference would be hard to call. they are most similar there. overall it would not be very close in my opinion.

i do not have a Rockport here for direct comparison, but i do have my Studer RTR tape which has not changed and honestly......my current set-up is clearly better than where the Rockport was. the Rockport design is now almost 20 years old, so that is no knock on the Rockport.

and i feel with the addition of the Herzan, my current tt/arm/weight/shelf is as good as it gets, maybe better. that's simply my perspective.

mikelavigne June 10, 2013 01:28

over the last 3 hours i had 2 local audiophile friends over and we did an A-B-A with the TS-140 and the NVS isolation platform.

with three of us it only took about 15 minutes to switch them in and out. we used 8-9 different cuts. we played them all first the TS-140 under the NVS, then on the NVS isolation platform under the NVS, and then back with the TS-140.

i cannot say whether my friends will chime in or not. and it's up to them to express their perspectives.

what i will say is the discussion after centered on 2 main topics; why doesn't every turntable come with one of these?, and what they might have to do to get one.

as far as my perceptions; they are consistent with my earlier claims.....but maybe even more intensely expressed after hearing before and after really brings it home.

we're not in Kansas anymore Toto.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 21:27

I'm intrigued as to where the combination of NVS/Telos/Herzan stands in comparison with your previous reference Rockport. It seems that with the addition of the Herzan you have substituted the final component of the Rockport combination that you had previously, ie full isolation.
I do realise this q is a little unfair since it's, what, a couple of years since you replaced the Rockport, but I'm sure you've got a pretty good memory of it's sonic 'fingerprint'.
It seems that the NVS/shelf ($45000), Telos w.sapphire plate ($20000) and Herzan ($12000), is taking the combination into at least the ball park of Rockport prices.

spiritofmusic June 09, 2013 19:11

Metralla,

I agree that the TS-140 fits the visual look and size of the NVS. sometimes technical advances looked kludged, i'm happy that is not the case this time.

I love the look. elegance is always preferred when it also performs.

and this is one big reason I did not go with the Halcyonics version of active isolation. it has a taller box and looks a bit awkward to me.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 17:26

Lawrence,

when I installed the Herzan on Friday night I was by myself. the Herzan itself is about 70 pounds and my shelf height is about 37 inches, it's easy to get a grip on so no problem logistically. however; the NVS turntable with the larger halo, 2 large heavy stainless armboards, and -2- 7 pound Telos bases, likely weighs 120-130 pounds+.....and it's hard to get a grip on.....I kinda had to hug it to pick it up and then setting it down on a small table without throwing my back out was a challenge.

i'm not doing that again by myself. :)

so doing an ABA will wait until I have some help for sure. personally I have no need for an ABA, but some of my friends want to do it.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 17:03

The Herzan TS-140 is such a perfect fit for the NVS in both width and length. Looks made to measure and very impressive.

The short video on their web site was illuminating.

Regards,

metralla June 09, 2013 15:14

yup thats a real isolation device you go there mike!...not many good ones..this does all 6 axes :)

I purchased several years ago a mechanical isolation device a real one no BS audiophile crap..it isolated in all 6 axes too with similar specifications...personally i did not like it..for various reasons but one thing i remember stuck out in my mind it made music sound more together but softer more resolution but not more real ...anyways enjoy your new toy

if you would after awhile go back to original ABA if you will... and give us your opinion

Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward

lharasim June 09, 2013 15:11

James,

glad you are enjoying the new mat. I assume you use both the top carbon fiber and the foam underneath.

the NVS clamp does require the washer to be most effective.

here is how I ranked the use of the clamp and mat.

1-mat only was best
2-clamp with washer was next.
3-naked, no clamp without washer.
4-clamp without washer.

take some time, maybe get another listener to help, and find a few tracks and do the investigation yourself. and do ask Jonathan to send you the washer.

best regards,

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 14:33

Sean,

you need to hear this.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 14:27

Pradeep,

thanks. the TS-140 is $12,000. the smaller TS-150 is a little less.

i'm sure that Teck will give you a full in-person report when he next visits. :)

best regards,

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 14:26

Hi Mike, I had looked into the Herzan TS-140 before but it is a little over my budget for now. Sounds like you are hearing a nice improvement. I'm not surprised. Vibration management is very important.

sarcher30 June 09, 2013 13:48

Mike
Congrats on the Herzan. What kind of prices are we talking about , if you don't mind my asking ?
Regards
Pradeep

sunnyboy1956 June 09, 2013 13:24

my Herzan TS-140 active isolation shelf arrived yesterday, and I installed it last evening.

I had been looking forward to this since 2005 when a reviewer from Positive Feedback brought over a Halcyonics for me to try. 3 years ago I switched from Grand Prix Audio Monaco decoupling shelves to the Adona 'grounded' racks to be able to optimize isolation devices such as the Herzan. when you combine isolation systems both systems are compromised. back in 2005 we had placed the Halcyonics on top of my GPA Monaco decoupling rack, yet it still sounded wonderful. how might it do when given the chance to work as designed?

no doubt I had big expectations. however; I also thought there was a chance that there might be take-aways that might compromise the benefits. with isolation devices my experience had been there are no absolutes. I did not know anyone who had tried one of these on a SOTA turntable. might it soften the sound?

it turns out it far exceeded my expectations. and I think besides the grounded, mass loaded Adona rack it sits on......and the 6" of concrete the Adona is spiked to, the NVS tt is an ideal match for the Herzan since it's designed to work with it's own isolation shelf. and Wave Kinetics started out as an isolation device builder.

i'll start out with the areas of my concerns, which I need not have had. the snap, impact, and weight of transients and bass is on a level I've never heard before. a huge improvement. and those things were already amazing. now they are 'real'. detail and focus is improved for everything, there is more density, texture, and harmonic sparkle......a vivid 'live-ness' that is hard to describe. the separation of every individual aspect of the presentation is another large improvement.

Herzan under the NVS, side view

Herzan TS-140 under the NVS

but really, the important thing is that music is more involving and compelling, there is a greater sense of the playing together, and the emotional content is much greater. I cannot stop listening.

I am astonished at what i'm hearing.

mikelavigne June 09, 2013 04:03

Mike. Your system is looking wonderful. You must be very happy. I recently received the Speed mat on the strength of comments on this thread and I am extremely pleased with it. I was skeptical but it really makes a difference. One question - when I received my NVS turntable it came with a clamp but no washer. Is this something I should have Jonathan send over. I have been using the clamp on its own.

vicks7 June 08, 2013 01:00

hi Ken,

yes, i recall we spoke a few times back when many fewer folks were doing tape. it was the new thing.

i'm keeping my Studer A820's for a few reasons. one of which is that i do have local support for my A820's as Ki Choi lives 20 miles from me and is an expert on them. as well as Fred Thal, the Studer tech who refurbed my first A820, is in California.

and a further related point that Ki has installed a direct-out head switch on both A820's for connection to my King-Cello tape repro custom output electronics.

second reason is that the A820 allows simple switching from IEC to NAB with one button.....and the ATR-102 does require either having separate sound cards or manual adjustments.

the third reason is that i love the look and feel of using the Studer, although the ATR-102 is quite the machine too.

the final reason is that i have been trying to eliminate any redunant gear from my system both to raise funds for other gear and to simplfy the system, and only want 2 RTR decks, one for 1/4" and one for 1/2". a few year back i owned 6 nice RTR decks, now only 2.

so i choose my 2 favorite.

the Ampex ATR-102 is a wonderful machine that i could just as easily live with and i think in stock form sounds a bit better than my Studer A820's. enjoy yours.

mikelavigne May 25, 2013 14:03

Hi Mike,

It has been a while since we last spoke and at that time it was in regarding to reel to reel tape machines. We both were ATR and Studer guys. You had both and chose to sell your ATR machine. I also have both and will sell my Studer machines when the market will make it at least a break even situation.

We both have a viable investment in tape machines that can only be justified if the library of software makes it a worthwhile. Both machines require a good tech to keep them in tune and they are getting harder to find as the time passes. ATR is 4 hours from Richmond and parts are off the shelf. Should I need service they are a stone's throw away. Studer, not so much for me.

Not living close to service for a high tech machine will be the first reason to make a choice.

Your thoughts, and enjoy your new babies!

regards, ken

kftool May 25, 2013 00:11

thanks Brent.

no, never did consider having the darts behind the speakers.

there is no acoustical reason to do it.

as far as length of cables; some people like super short speaker cables but i'm not one of those. interconnects and power cables would still be the same length.

visually; personally, i like the amps in between the speakers, especially amps that look like these. i think it would look 'naked' without them. but it would look cleaner i suppose with them behind the speakers. it's all about what sort of aesthetic you might like. i can see if it was a living room with multiple uses then cleaner might be the choice. in my case, with a dedicated room i think having them between the speakers is correct.

mikelavigne May 24, 2013 15:17

That is one beautiful and well balanced system. If that were my system, I would have the dartZeels front and centre, but did you ever consider putting them behind the speakers and out of direct line of sight?

brf May 24, 2013 14:04

Ken,

one more point; i do understand that my new speakers dominate the visual look of the room and make it look smaller than it is. -4- 7 foot tall 700 pound towers will do that to most any room. but the speakers do not 'sound' cramped at all. those speakers were designed for a space of similar cubic footage as my room is....and fit like a glove accoustically.

my room handles the bass energy and SPL's easily.

mikelavigne May 24, 2013 13:34

hi Ken,

long-time, no talk. nice to hear from you.

i'd say my listening room is 'just right' for me and my system. it is large enough, at 29' x 21' x 11', to allow the speakers to 'breathe' and for complete note decay and large scale dynamics and deep bass extension, yet has a human scale where i am comfortable spending extended time in the room. my acoustical room designer choose that size exactly.

listening rooms that are larger than mine are kinda 'too much' as a singular listening space to my sensibilites. i could have had a space as large as 26' x 35' x 14' inside my barn if i wanted to. there is an intimate aspect to lots of music which is compromised in such as space. recorded music is not mixed with such spaces in mind. and my room retains so much energy with all the hard surfaced diffusion that it does mimic large spaxes when the music calls for it.

my space is large enough for 15-25 people to join me inside the room for events, which i have had on occasion.

the barn has 1800 sq. ft. of space. upstairs i have a rec room/sports pit/exercise space/pool table space that is 42' x 14' where i hang out too. then downstairs there is a large 3/4 bathroom.

i love my barn and would not change a thing at this point. my wife is also comfortable with it so it's all good.

mikelavigne May 24, 2013 13:26

Mike,

Beautiful, but have you thought about a larger barn?

Ken

kftool May 24, 2013 00:42

Peter,

not yet. Kevin has not had a chance to get up here to do the final set-up on the MM7's yet. and frankly they sound so good i've not worried about it or pushed him to get here. the speakers have seemingly stopped changing for the last month or so.....likely a matter of both the amps and sperakers being mostly broken in now after 6 months.

i've had help with laser alignment and some speaker adjustments which have moved the needle forward to a pretty special place, and will likely do a little more of that prior to Kevin's visit. hard to imagine it getting much better than what i now enjoy. but it probably will.

we have tentatively focused on late July or August for Kevin to visit.

mikelavigne May 20, 2013 01:56

Lawrence,

my MM7's price is $200k.

my old MM3's were in the area of $70K.

as we all realize, no speaker is perfect. at best a speaker can only be the least compromised choice one knows of. that's my view of the MM7's. not perfect, just the least imperfect i've heard with my ears.....

they make great music and make me smile constantly. i'm having fun.

mikelavigne May 20, 2013 01:46

Mike, Have you had your new MM7s dialed in by the designer yet? I remember you writing that he was planning to come up, but I don't recall a report on that visit and resulting sound. Are they fully broken in yet? I fully understand it when you write "I'm right where I want to be system wise. and loving it."

peterayer May 19, 2013 23:59

Mike thanks for being a good sport!...I thought your speakers were approaching 70k?..alberts 180K...but we both know he didn't or couldn't afford that...anyways looking forward to reading more..... and learning how 180k speaker is the end all be all..LOL

oh yea I totally agree money does not mean fidelity...I am still very fond of my very old speakers... the fulton Premere IMO nothing even comes close... these play music...not talking rock music here... ..remember I listen live and record live venues... I wish more of the people on the forum went and listened live that way they would demand more of the audio manufactures to produce something that sounds like real music instead of this overly bright detailed crap :)

well get on with it

Lawrence

lharasim May 19, 2013 23:45