Dertonarm, I understand your intent, and the Wavac does sound tantalizing if it does what you say it does in terms of dynamics while maintaining SETness.

In reviewing the Wavac reviews, it does seem to possess innovative circuitry (capacitorless in places). Fremer's review of the 8-box SH unit did reference a certain bloat or fatness in the bass and a sense of being rolled off in the highs with a slight tilt towards euphony. Atkinson's measurements bore these observations out. Any comments?

agear January 10, 2012 19:51

Hello Charles1dad, I have seen the Wavac 833 1.3v changing hands ( new and demo ) in 2011 for anything between USD 26k and 38k. There are a lot of amplifiers out there in this price range.
Regards,
D.

dertonarm January 05, 2012 21:20

"Listening to any amplifier at an audio show is a waste of time - as we all do know just to well."

Really? Wow, we are all fools and time wasters who have ever stepped into an audio show room to hear an amp or system.

I will never ever go to another show.

Thanks Arm.

glory January 05, 2012 20:48

Hello Dertonarm,
I`m not questioning motive or your experience with the Wavac amp. If it is as you describe then certainly it`s exceptional. The 833 tube cost is reasonable, I was refering to the Wavac`s cost. A number of rooms at shows manage to present very good sonics and are`nt a waste of time at all.

How else would most listeners have the exposure to many high end components if not for shows and dealer showrooms(a vanishing breed). My point was that with electronic gear they`re always some degree of trade off decisions/choices. 'If' the Wavac 833 avoids this issue and provides all the attributes of low power SET with much more power intact then I`d have to agree with your impressions.
Regards,

charles1dad January 05, 2012 20:02

Dertonarm
I would think the WAVAC using the 833a valve would be a very good power match for Mikes speakers, sonic quality aside.

From my experience the quality /design of SET amplifiers schematics, mains & output transformers and power supply ultimately relate to the amplifier quality.

Valve choice is carefully chosen for the power output needed for a given loudspeaker that the amplifier is intended to be matched.

The room dimensions also have to be a factor on amplifier power needed for the audio system to reach a desired SPL of music playback.

45 and 2A3 amplifiers can sound absolutely wonderful But you need to match with speakers of very high efficiency to have a realistic playback for all types of music.
Many people love these amplifiers as I do my self for their positive sonic attributes.
I think the hard part is to build a more powerful amplifier with the same delicacy as these smaller triode valves.

This is what makes this hobby very interesting for me personally experimenting with valve amplifiers design trying to achieve the best in music playback with SET & Push Pull valve amplifiers.

jasonparmenter January 05, 2012 19:38

Dear Agear, dear Charles1dad, as said before - I won't go into any discussion about this.
My recommendation for the WAVAC 833 1.3v roots far beyond what is normally "discussed" today when talking about SETs.
I have built SET power amplifiers with 300B, PX4, AD1, RE604, 845 and 275a as long back as 1989.

The book on SET power amplifiers was already written long before they were "discovered" by the commercial high end audio industry in the mid 1990s.
My recommendation was partly because of Mike's speaker - but only partly.

The price? - a NOS 833A tube can be found and bought today for around US$120-200.
It commands much less than most all of the famed flea-power triodes mentioned above.

Listening to any amplifier at an audio show is a waste of time - as we all do know just to well.

My word - try the 833 1.3v on the MM3s and it will blow you (positively ...) away.
I know it will.
This is the only SET power amplifier out there which combines the natural virtues of the SET-principle with authority and the ability to control most speakers.

And: I neither own a Wavac 833 nor will I sell one nor do I have any commercial interest in it.

And - no, I do not use the Wavac 833 myself.
Have fun.

dertonarm January 05, 2012 16:45

Hi Agear,
I also wonder about the trade offs involved when using the huge, powerful and expensive transmission type tubes for SET. I could be very wrong but I don`t believe these tube types can match the innate qualities of the lower power DHT tubes. It seems you gain substantially in brute power/drive but sacrifice in other areas.

I only heard the big Wavac at an CES briefly(so hard to really know)but it was not the sound of the smaller DHT SET amplifiers.All amps have some inevitable comprimise.

charles1dad January 05, 2012 12:37

Dertonarm, how much does a 833 replacement tube cost?

It seems that one of the standard dictums of the SET world is "less is more." In speaking with Mike, he felt that the low powered 2a3s did things that the Lamm, Wavac and others did not (in his system). In my brief experience with SETs, the lower wattage beast seemed to have more of that luminescence and purity that is the essence of SET land. The flea powered stuff is addicting. One of my favorite rooms at Axpona was the Voxativ single driver speaker driven by a 3W SET.

In an ideal world, Mike and the rest of us would have multiple systems. If cruel logic dictates Mike's decision, and presuming the 2a3s are king, horn speakers would be in order. On the other hand, having more than one amp for his current speakers would be swell.

All that being said, unless the room and power is truly dialed in, it is hard to hear the best from your equipment, leading to soulless searching on Audiogon.

agear January 05, 2012 11:23

Dear Mike, I will not go into any discussion about this, but my recommendation of the WAVAC 833 1.3V has nothing to do with power output.
There is much more to SETs than power rated output or plate resistance.
The 833 can provide a level of control (in a positive way ..) while keeping all the positive "effects" of low power SETs (natural flow and texture, ease and inner harmonic structures).
The 833 is not perfect and I already know 4-5 vital points how to improve the sound of the Wavac, but it nevertheless comes a good deal closer to the real thing than most every other amplifier out there.
And it takes a lot making me saying that about any audio product not designed by me ... ;-) ....
Cheers,
D.

dertonarm January 03, 2012 21:43

Mike,

Happy New Year!

I read your mention of a pce you truly love;

ELLINGTON "JAZZ PARTY IN STEREO"

I just received my 5 record copy today, brand new copy and currently playing the 45 rpm Side A1 and absolutely lovin it, all I can say is Wow!

Thanks

dev January 03, 2012 19:57

Hi Mike
How did the Lamm ML2.1 control your speakers with 18 watts output ?

I would suggest trying different SET amplifiers to get a handle on how they match with your speakers and how much head room they offer you for more demanding music playback.

I have tried many SET amplifiers here over the years, the WAVAC Ver 1.3 are wonderful amplifiers, I have used these in my system here and even on the Avantgarde Duo Omega horn speakers they sounded very good if not a bit overkill on 107 db efficient speaker with active bass drivers.

I have also had the Kondo Gaku On mono block amplifiers here in my system for 5 months, these sounded wonderful on the Audio Note ANE SEC speakers 95 db but had too much hum for the Avantgarde horns.

The Lamm ML2.1 sounds wonderful on my Parmenter Fat Boy 98 DB speakers but I wanted a bit more power in reserve for my Reggae /Roots music playback and control of my passive TAD 16 inch woofers.
I now use a SET amplifier with double the power of the Lamm ML 2.1 for extra head room in reserve as I can not afford a pair of the Lamm ML3`s.

Thanks Jason.

jasonparmenter January 03, 2012 19:46

Mike,
You have a large listening room, excellent speaker and a top tier low power SET. I`m frankly surprised the 2A3 amp performs as well as it does with 93db speakers in such a huge cubic volume. The WAVAC 833 is an entirely different approach (and likely a very differnt sound). This large 150 watt SET(over kill for your needs?) is ultra expensive. Power? for sure, however beauty,nuance, transparency and purity of the Found Music amp,I wonder.

It seems to me if '3 watts' is satisfying to the degree you express, then 25-50 watts from a high quality SET would get the job done and still preserve most of the desirable qualities of low power SET amplifiers.

charles1dad January 03, 2012 16:16

Add : in your system a Jl 2 would do off course as the low freqs have their own amp , or can you also drive the bass passive ??? if you want ??

andromedaaudio January 03, 2012 16:15

I would for myself like to try out the Convergent JL 3 signature at one time , they would be a logical replacement for the krells in the future , Set with a lot of power and if they are like the preamps in the bottom end , it means very tight controlled deep bass .
Maybe mike can do a try out for us some time .

H-J

andromedaaudio January 03, 2012 15:39

D.

many thanks for the recommendation. not many have played in that league of SET's and can offer advice. i will try to investigate, and also plan on how to approach the wife about such a thing. i guess retirement can be delayed another little while. :)

hummmmmmm.

i did noticed that you are assisting a few friends selling off their very spendy SET's; one the ML3's and another the big Kondo. are those also related to the 833 Mk1.3?

mikelavigne January 03, 2012 14:00

thanks Jason. and your response makes sense.

the MM3's are 93db, 6ohm. and any amp only needs to power the mids and tweeter. so maybe they don't need quite a 140 watt SET, but to get decent linearity in the bottom end you do need a bit of power. the dart is very linear in the bass, and an SET does not need to match that fully as i expect it to be competent in the bass, but not exactly the same.

but i do get your inference about the kind of power i might need in an SET. i had been thinking more 30-40 watts might do it. maybe not.

mikelavigne January 03, 2012 13:54

Mike

As I mentioned before the Audiopax Maggiore 100 is worthy of serious consideration. I auditioned the demo model and the final version should be arriving in a few weeks. It remains one of a very few (likely the only) SET to operate at Class A1 at 100W. I can send you the full specifications by email if you would like but based on these specs, technically they are a very good match to the Evolution Acoustic speakers.

vicks7 January 03, 2012 13:12

Dear Dertonarm,
Wow, my dealer run on demo WAVAC HE 833 v1.3. and I can try a pair with my MM2!! So, whether to accept your suggestion ... I wonder if I have the courage to jump in the deep ...
Cheers,
Lyubo

lbelchev January 03, 2012 13:00

Dear Mike,
do give a listen to the WAVAC HE 833 v1.3. Here you have a SET which can drive your MM3 with ease and offers low register extension which you can't get with low power SETs like 300B, 2A3, VT52, AD1, PX4/25 and that like.
I recommended this amplifier to Thuchan too and he - and I .. - are very pleased with the results.
Saying that, I have 1st hand experience with the above named SETs since the mid 1980s and have built myself a few dozen pairs SETs including 845s.
The Wavac 833 is in a league all itself.
Try a pair for a long weekend and I would be surprised if it isn't the begin of a long-lasting love affair.
Cheers,
D.

dertonarm January 03, 2012 07:25

tonight has been 'Mahler Monday'. i've been enjoying a quiet night with the DG 2 disc box set of Giulini's Mahler 9th with the Chicago Symphony.

i'm no Mahler expert, this box set was a rec from Joel Durand.

anyway; it's a real musical journey and system workout. delightful and involving. very quiet surfaces, nice full and detailed sound. excellent recording with great foundation and bass.

i don't think i'm qualified to judge the interpretation, but i very much have enjoyed it. great way to start the week and year.

mikelavigne January 03, 2012 07:19

Mike, the problem is to find a SET amplifier that will work with your speakers 92 DB ( is that correct ?) and give you the head room you need.

I built my own speakers ( Parmenter Fat Boy) and SET mono block valve amplifier to match with them.
As I have said in my previous posts my speakers are 98 DB efficient and I need 35 watts SET amplifiers to give me the full scale sound.
I use a TAD horn driver for the mid range & treble and a vented cabinet for the TAD 16 inch bass driver.
This is a 2 way system that integrates really well, I use a adjustable Townshend ribbon super tweeter for extra ambience & air to the music presentation.

If you relate the power to speaker efficiency that I have in my system and then reverse that down to your speakers at 92 DB it would be like you using a 140 watt per channel SET amplifier on your speakers to get the same energy & dynamics.

I just wanted to express in my posts to you that a SET amplifier /speaker system can portray full range and dynamics when designed from the ground up.

jasonparmenter January 03, 2012 06:56

trying to digest the various points and feedback in the last group of posts. thanks to everyone for their input.

what i was attempting to communicate was that i had not yet heard a relatively low powered SET powered system be able to also extend to the lowest frequencies with apparent ease combined with a top to bottom seamlessness. not that this cannot be done, i simply had not observed it being done. or even heard about the details of such a system.

i believe that if i can find an SET which works with my MM3's that will have the best chance of actually doing that. others have suggested that i find a 100db speaker system appropriate to my 2a3's. i'm not familiar with any 100db efficient speaker system that with be seamless top to bottom and compete with the MM3's on the bottom head to head.

sure horns can easily do the 100db efficiency, but you need horns as big as a house to do deep bass. otherwise you need to try and integrate dynamic drivers for the deep bass, and seamlessness becomes questionable.

please enlighten me about solutions that are real world for my question. i'm serious.

my thoughts on this whole subject is to at some point have an SET that can be swiched with the dart amp on the MM3's that both work. simple and and real world.

mikelavigne January 03, 2012 05:24

Yeah its all allright but when i am watching saving private ryan and i watch the landmines being detonated , i want to feel it and hear it .
Most " high end systems " can portray a piano , thats not so difficult , but to accurately portray the scale of a large event (orchestra) is another thing.
Thats where a big surface comes in and i think the designer of mikes loudspeakersystem has quite maximised that idea .

andromedaaudio January 02, 2012 21:52

12-31-11: Mikelavigne
"Jason,

i will be continueing to investigate SET's and where they can take me. i'm not selling them short. but they will need to be linear in ways i've not heard them be so far to be the main amp for my system.

when the i'm playing large scale music in my system and it's carrying me away, that precision is part of the magic."

Hi Mike
SET amplifiers have to be matched very carefully to the loudspeakers, to many times people try to match a SET amplifier to a speaker it will never control properly and be able to provide a full scale presentation to the music.

Single Ended Triode amplifier design does have a magic to the emotional connection to the music that is very addictive, the hard part is then to find a loudspeaker that can portray a full scale realistic playback.

Mike I go to a lot of live music, mainly out door concerts and music festivals, I use these concerts as my reference point in my own audio system design and I feel I can reach a realistic playback presentation with my 35 watt SET amplifiers matched to my 98 DB efficient speakers.

I also use the Lamm M 1.2 reference hybrid mono amplifiers and Pass Labs XA 100 mono blocks on the same speakers and I do not feel I suffer from lack of dynamics with the SET amplifiers in a comparison in scale.

Thanks Jason.

jasonparmenter January 02, 2012 21:39

"Acoustical waves do not move air.

When we read in some high-end magazine that such and such a flagship loudspeaker can blow out a candle while reproducing a trumpet or a saxophone, this is just metaphorical.

The sound is produced by the vibration of air molecules, step by step. Yes, you did read correctly. It is vibration, not movement.

If you know a friend who plays trumpet or saxophon, just put your hand on the bell and you will only feel vibration, not a single tiny puff of wind. By the way, you will never think about a piano being able to stir up air to produce wind, would you?"

from DartZeel Audiophile's technical manual

lbelchev January 02, 2012 17:32