I was also transported with SET but IMO in my system it still lack some stuff. 101db speakers to boot. Everyone enjoy your amps.

HNY!!

glory December 30, 2011 20:13

Hi Glory
You have some very good points in your post but I have to agree with Charles and personally believe you can achieve a music system with SET amplifiers that will transport you to audio Nirvana when matched with the right loudspeakers.

In this hobby & passion each persons has their own sonic requirements from their music system but we all have the same goal in mind to achieve the best music playback in our rooms.

Personally I use a pair of SET mono block amplifier producing 35 watts per channel matched with a pair of 98 db efficient loudspeakers, this combination transports me and my friends back to the live event where we have enjoyed the bands first hand.

Each to their own to reach musical enjoyment, there is no right or wrong way just personal different flavors.

jasonparmenter December 30, 2011 18:52

Glory, you are right on the money about the dark side of audio. It's funny. Whenever my wife sees the Audiogon yellow on the computer screen, she groans, and says "so you're looking at audio porn again."

Mike, spectacular room aesthetically and I am sure sonically. As a percentage, what contribution does room (and power) contribute to your sound? I have heard quite a few people say the room contributes 60-70% since it really is THE SPEAKER.

Regarding your amp quest, what exactly are the DarTZeels lacking? You mention the DarTZeels not having the same "breath of life" as the big tube amps. For me, that variable is #1. Scale, visceral presence, something you can put your finger into. I have never heard SETs pull that off (even with appropriate speakers). I cannot imagine your new SETs will do the trick with the MM3s, and I predict they will not last in your system.

agear December 30, 2011 16:58

Hi Mike,

Hope all is well with you.

Out of interest, are you also using a digital server as a source along with the analog and digital rig? You mentioned in an earlier post that your son was producing a server for those that might be interested and I appreciate you did not want to plug it too much for obvious reasons.

I was prompted to mention this as saw an article recently from Pacific Northwest Audio Society and it shows a photo with you and Jonathan and behind you some of your components including what looks like an Apple CD Drive. I might be interested in this as have a great DAC inside my APL modded Esoteric CD Player.

Kind regards

James

vicks7 December 30, 2011 14:35

Glory,
Interesting perspective, we`ll just disagree on your last sentence. I believe SET amplifiers have the potential to provide the"big picture" as completely as any SS amp. The key factor is 'proper' speaker match with the SET amp of choice.

I`ve achieved utter satisfaction with my current SET based system(big picture and all). You seem just as content with your ASR based system, my point is what ever path gets you where you want to go, follow it.

This pursuit is simply individual preferences/goals.
SET amps may not have gotten you what you ultimately desired but broad statements saying they`re incapable of completing the big picture is merely one opinion and not an undeniable fact(SET for me,SS for you, perhaps class D for someone else).
There are many audiogon members who have found their ultimate sound using a variety of amplifier types to get there. There just are`nt any absolutes when it comes to component superiority. I hope you continue to enjoy your current system for many years, as I plan to do the same with mine.
Regards,

charles1dad December 30, 2011 12:36

I heard Mike's room several years ago (Playback Design/TT/RR >DarTZeel NHB-18NS>>DarTZeel NHB-108 Stereo amp>>EE MM3s).  The level of sonic realism achieved was stellar.  He is to be congratulated. 

I have owed several SET amps, including the Audio Note Neishu and P4 Silver, along with the M3 pre-amp and J-Spe loudspeakers.   I then migrated to OTLS, first the Atmasphere S30s and then later the 75W Tenors.  These amps were used to feed Zu Presence 101Db loudspeakers.  Each amp had its respective strengths and weaknesses.  The Tenor OTLs were the best tube amp I have owned or heard.  It possessed the presence and immediacy of SETs with SS dynamics.  However, living in Florida made them an untenable option due to their heat output.  I was distraught about giving them up and thought there was no way in hell I would find a SS or even tube amp to match them. I was wrong.  The ASR Emitter I Exclusive is like the Tenor on steroids.  I have lost nothing, but that brings me to a larger issue that needs to be addressed:  the lust of the flesh.  It is NEVER satisfied (like Tiger Woods).

We can reach a level (Mike is there) where our gear is so spectacular that equipment changes are lateral moves at best.  Like exotic cars, everyone has a different road feel, etc, but it is only DIFFERENT.  Audio can become a drug for many, and we have to hit it every day.  I have.  Audio addiction is powerful, and we often need rehab just to break free.  Tiger Woods could have any woman he wanted, but at the end of the day, his wife, the real prize, slipped away.  For me personally, this hobby has eerie parallels to the TW story.   A new amp comes out, and we lay with it. New wire, and we are dating it.  Audio pornography knocks at our doors, and the temptation is especially strong for those with $$$$. 
 
Think about it for a second.  What are WE really looking for in this hobby?  A transcendent experience?  Transformation?  Deliverance?  What?

SET amp? I think Mike you need to build a 2nd listening room and call it the SET room and there you can build around it. In the mean time I look forward to another visit to hear one of the better audio music room I have heard with the Dart amp.

In the end the SS amp done right just gives a total big picture to the sound that SET amps can not do. 

glory December 30, 2011 00:55

Elberoth2,
Very astute and interesting observations regarding the unique abilities of low powered SET amplifiers.I `d just mentioned in another thread if I were to ever return to SS amps, Dartzeel would be near or at the top of my list.
Natural sound is a must, yet many highly touted SS amps sound artificial and just plain hifi.
Regards,

charles1dad December 27, 2011 13:13

Mike, u got it right. I thought you were using both amp. Really surprise the 2a3 amp can drive your speaker. It should be otherwise you would have purchase it.
So I can probably buy another pair of CJ 350 and use it the way you are using with your dartzeel or I may purchase a pass lab xa160.5 or even pathos adrenalin which is a class A 180 watter tube amp which my dealer is representing .
Have been following your thread for the past few years . Very interesting development especially your analog stuff and reel to reel recorders.
I got a studer a810 modified by doc to accept bottle head repro amp. Didn't listen to it enough as I don't have many tape except those for tape project & analogue association Germany . So can be boring listening to the same old 30-40 tapes & master tape copies are so exorbitantly price.
To me , vinyl is interesting because of the wealth of vinyl titles available & the ability to tweak the system by changing tonearm & cartridges
Anyway , you are definitely the envy of many audiophile with the opportunity & affordability to experiment with various set up

audioblazer December 26, 2011 10:05

Mike - congrats on your new amps.

Your experience with low power SET amps matches mine. Ever since I first heard a top tier SET amp in my system (Ancient Audio Silver Grand Mono - $40k, 300B based SET) I cannot get this sound out of my head.

I have went through countless amps since - Lamm 1.2R, BAT 150SE, ARC Ref110/150, Spectral 260, Pass X.5 and XA.5, Burmester 911, darTZeel, Nagra VPA, Audio Note Japan (Kondo) Ongaku - but nothing could duplicate the performance of the best low powered SET. Dart was probably the closest, giving the sound which is very transparent, smooth, articulate and has outstanding microdynamics - which is why I still keep it.

If you want to persue the SET experiece further, I would try some SET amps using 300B tubes (but only those using some quality iron, rectification, p-to-p wiring throughout, exotic caps like V-Caps or AN Silver etc) or parallel 2A3 to get more headroom.

845, or even 211 tubes, as sugested by some in this thread, will simply not get you there IMO. I had the Audio Note Japan (Kondo) Ongaku on loan for a couple of weeks (211 based SET) - which is one of the finest exaples of the breed - but it was no match for Ancient Audio Silver Grand Mono in terms of resolution, decays, HF clarity and above all - microdynamics. It sounded slow and colored in comparision.

elberoth2 December 25, 2011 23:28

and on another note, we are getting a rain and wind storm here in the mountains east of Seattle at the moment, and the lights have flickered 3 or 4 times......but.....with the Equi=tech isolation transformer i've had no effect on the music. i normally get 4-8 seconds before i lose the music when the lights go out. and flickers are ignored with the 100kva power buffer of the big Equi=tech.

let's hope i don't lose power. i do have a NG powered generator to keep the house going; but with company coming i can't cook the Christmas Roast on the BBQ because my rotisarie won't turn. and my ovens won't work on the generator.

mikelavigne December 25, 2011 20:24

in between 'honey-do' stuff i need to do for SWMBO before the gang arrives, i am getting a chance to listen.

i just threw the Diana Krall 'Christmas Songs' Lp on the table and wow, that is one great sounding Lp. i've owned it since it came out in 2005 and not sure i ever played it before.

anyway; if you have it, now would likely be a good time to play it. even if you typically have a Diana Krall filter going.

mikelavigne December 25, 2011 20:16

hi Audioblazer,

and Merry Christmas and a happy new year to you too.

congrats on the Savoy Sigs, a very nice speaker.

i think your situation is quite different from my Evolution Acoustics MM3's; which have integral digital amp powered subwoofers. these very neutral sounding sub amps get their signal from the main amp at the speaker terminal for the mids and tweeters. so they 'mimic' the character of the main amp (since those amps are the source) while feeding the subs. in that way there is a consistent character and cohesiveness thru the whole frequency spectrom.

i 'either' use the dart stereo amp 'or' the Found Music 2a3 monoblocks. i don't use both at the same time. the Evolution Acoustics do not allow for bi-amping. only one channel can be fed into the mid-tweeter input terminal. and no doubt the MM3's sound quite different top to bottom depending on which amp i use.

i assume from your question, you are contemplating using a separate and different amp on top and bottom for bi-amping the Savoy Sigs. my opinion is that it will be a challenge to find ultimate synergy taking that approach.

the Savoy has design heritage somewhat with the Von Schweikert VR9's and VR7's i had for awhile. those were both bi-ampable, even though the VR9's also had powered subs. for that application, i used a pair of darTZeel NHB-108 stereo amps, so all 4 channels of amplifiication were identical. so cohesiveness was never a problem.

if you are contemplating a low powered SET on the top and mid or high power solid state on the bottom i'm skeptical about coherence. the reason for the MM3 design is to solve the very problem you are facing......matching a very dynamic and deep bass performance with refinement on top.

my recommendation is to find the very best sounding mid level powered amplifier you can find (read darTZeel) and buy 4 channels of it. otherwise you will likely be chasing your tail of compromise. it's better to have coherence and then just listen to music without the distraction.

pardon me if i miss-understood your question, or re-state it and i'll try to respond.

mikelavigne December 25, 2011 19:53

Hi mike , merry Christmas & a happy new year.
1 am getting an eggleston savoy signature soon & is considering driving the speaker with different amp for the woofer & mid but was told it may have coherency problem. How do you find matching your different amp ie dartzeel & 2a3 mono block with your speaker ?

audioblazer December 25, 2011 02:28

Wishing you Pam and family a very Merry Christmas.
Enjoy the holidays and hope to see you soon.
Mike

rugyboogie December 25, 2011 02:19

Oh, and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you too James!

mikelavigne December 24, 2011 19:02

hi James,

you will love the NVS! it is the real deal. the Talea 1 will be super on it, and the A90 too.

i cannot imagine a 'bad' cartridge match for a Talea 1 or 2....or the NVS for that matter. my friend Jazdoc uses the Benz LPS which sounds great in his system and brings a bit of a full bodied sound than the A90. he had it on the Talea 2 and now the Telos. he uses a Galibier tt.

as more NVS tt's get out i'm sure we'll hear about more cartridge choices too. for me i'm just so happy with the A90 i just have not really been tempted to explore others.

i know that Unoear is using a special step up on my old Olympos SL which i am curious about as i loved that cartridge. i never had planned to sell it as it was my other fav cartridge along with the A90.

maybe at some point i might try that again.

mikelavigne December 24, 2011 18:47

Have a good Christmas Mike. I have treated myself to the NVS table - very excited to be joining this club. I think I will run it either with the Talea I or Talea II and an A90. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on other cartridges that work well with the Talea arms.
Cheers
James

vicks7 December 24, 2011 16:44

Gary,

thanks for your views/raves on the NVS-Telos. as we both are hearing, it moves the reference waay out there. but it also makes us think more about the enjoyment of the music, and how much we are affected by the music. which is why we pursue better performance. a higher experience. it makes us happy and leaves us wanting to listen more.

Jonathan and Joel have truely achieved something very special with these products. i'm looking forward to more of these getting out there for a wider audience to hear and enjoy.

Merry Christmas Gary!

mikelavigne December 23, 2011 16:47

Alan,

i do have 4 other good RTR decks here as references to compare to the A820/King Cello, but thanks for the thoughtful advice. :)

and a Happy Holidays to you too.

mikelavigne December 23, 2011 15:35

Hi Mike,

Regarding the NVS, Telos, & a90 combo... no need to be low keyed anymore.. the cats out of the bag as they say.

I have only had mine set up since Monday & I can hardly believe what is being pulled off the record grooves.

Whatever I throw at it I'm amazed how well they perform together. Jazzdoc & your assessments are spot on to my findings.

I won't go into all the extra emotions I feel about this combo but lets just say I'm lost for words.

I felt & still feel the Talea II is world class but the Telos raises the bar. As well as the Wave Kinetics NVS.

The NVS is stunning.

Jonathan & Joel, Thank You!

Have a Merry Christmas Mike,

Gary

grr6001 December 23, 2011 04:43

Hi Mike,

You may want to get that Studer A820-King Cello checked out and soon before you lose your bearing :)

Happy Holidays!

unoear December 23, 2011 03:29

i've been pretty low key about the NVS and Telos for awhile. adding the Telos to the NVS resulted in an added 38 pounds of (1) larger halos, (2) larger stainless steel arm boards, and (3) much heavier Telos. it's taken some time to get everything to work ideally. the isolation base needed tweaking, and optimizing all that addional weight took some time.

Oh my God was it worth it!!!!!!!

no matter what Lp i throw down, the NVS-Telos-A90 effortlessly reveals the deepest musical message and provides maximum involvement. there is just an experience of music. when there is such low noise and lack of distortion all the information in those grooves comes thru without editorial.

i'll also have to include the Talea 2 with the Miyajima Premium Be mono in my raves. the Talea 2 mounted on the larger halo with the stainless arm board brings a level of performance to mono Lps which is kind of mind-blowing. if the Telos-A90 was not sitting there i'd be saying how much better it sounds than stereo. suffice it to say that mono can rock your world.

getting back to the Telos, last night i listened to a number of Lps; any of which would be worthy of mention for how they sounded. i'll mention the 'Malletoba Spank' cut off the Classic 45rpm pressing of Ellington's Jazz Party In Stereo. it's been a demo cut for me for 15+ years. over the last few years i've pulled it out many times to have a reference of progress between tt's and arms, specifically the Telos. i'd have to say until last night i've never really heard how it really sounds. there is a dimentionality to each tiny sound which i'll call '3D' which was never before there. you hear each musical part as a fully dimentional event in it's own space and without a reproduction diminishment. there is now an inner energy to each individual aspect of the soundstage which was never there before.

this cut makes it easy to hear differences between gear because there is so much precise information. but all those improvements i hear in every cut on every Lp, they simply aren't always so prominent. although, the sum of the effect of all that inforation is a flow to the music that sweeps you away.

i listened to Ben Webster 'Live at the Renaissance' AP 45rpm, 'Georgia on my Mind'; another long time reference cut. now brand new. vivid. live sounding. and Ben's sax explodes with energy like i'm sitting 10 feet away. space. scale. the level of energy is not like reproduced music; more like real music.....or something very close.

i could go on and on.

that energy, that '3D' presentation, the totally solid grounded nature of the music, the bass articulation and seemingly unlimited bass slam, and the overall relaxed ease and coherence of the musical message. it's been a bit overwhelming to my senses. i want to have people come and hear it so i don't have to try and describe it.

how much of this is the Telos? how much is the NVS? the A90? i know i don't really care. this is music presented as an experience, not a thing to listen to. it brings out my emotions and affects me.

the stylus is so stable and unfettered in the groove. pressings which i had previously listened to and thought had issues (on many great tt's and arms), are now effortlessly sailed thru with ease. passages which i had assumed were simply congested are made clear. unipivot? 12"? just listen.

the NVS-Telos-A90 looks my Studer A820-King Cello right in the eye on my very best RTR tapes. what more is there to say?

mikelavigne December 23, 2011 00:05

Mike,

systems need to fit our life styles, and you are already at a wonderful level of performance. so enjoy your system and upgrade as it makes sense. and have a Happy Holidays!

mikelavigne December 22, 2011 23:09

Cool. No offence at all :). I think part of is that I am impressed with all of the gear you try. I am unable to do that. I just can't try new things because I can't work on my system myself. So I am just impressed that you, along with others interchange parts in your system like you are making a sandwich. don't mean the cost. I simply mean the act of physically changing cables, amps, and pre amps etc... That's all. I have heard Barry's system which is the MM2's with the Dart gear so I have a feeling for what kind of sound you have.

I am happy with the progression of my system and I am curious to see how far I can take it. I am pretty sure though that I am "stuck" with these amps. The height of smaller GP shelves sort of dictate that. I don't know the height of the small shelves, i.e, how much space I have in between them, but my Bryston amps are 5 1/4in high and I don't think I can go much higher then that. Plus, it's hard to find a company that has 2 and 3 channel amps if I wanted to go that way or a 5 channel amp that would fit my power wants. Most of the amps I have access to are either too big or don't fit my needs. So, I have to make them sound as good as they can.

Bryston still fits my needs though if I wanted to up grade. the 4bSST and the 9bSST would fit my needs if I wanted to upgrade. I think they are much better then the ST versions I have now. But, they probably run even hotter then then my current amps which is not a good thing. As I said, most other amps have a height that is simply to high I think. So, for the time being I will just do what I can in making what I have sound the best it can. And I will still look at your system for inspiration :).

mikeduke December 20, 2011 13:18

Mike,

sorry for the delay in my response, i've been out of town since early last week with a convention, a separate business meeting and a wedding in another city. it's great to be home.

i know you were not blaming me; i was just making a (bad) joke. i appreciate that you respect my choices and learn from me. i did not mean to offend you. and i agree you have many good pieces in place. stay the course on your direction.

those 2a3 SET (single ended triode) amps are more a flirtation for me than a real world recommendation. they scratch an itch. they do a few things spectacularly, but then struggle in other areas in most systems. yes; i do use the dart pre with them.

mikelavigne December 20, 2011 01:31