Peter,

i had thought about your response to my Lp cleaning post and plan on re-thinking my approach to include some of your direction with the AIVS method and even acquiring another Loricraft. not sure how soon i can get it going but that's the plan, so thanks for the feedback. i figure i owe it to the gear to go a little further to optimize the condition of the Lps at least part of the time.

as far how everything seems to be always 'the latest and greatest' trust me, i see your inference. and early this year when i first encounterd what has become the Telos i had that same reaction; what? another leap forward already? didn't we just do this? then i heard the damn 'beast' (which is what i first called it) and i understood. Joel's creative juices had not stopped with the Talea 2. he had to follow his muse. and even in it's early form it was a huge leap.

so i don't blame you for the healthy skepticism about how can we keep 'leaping' forward with greater performance. you will need to visit me and hear the Talea 2, and then the Telos. then you tell me what you think about it.

the Telos is completely new....with nothing in common with the Talea 1 or Talea 2 other than it's a Unipivot and uses a wood arm wand. i'm not sure i've actually seen the final version exactly; but whereas the Talea's are refined looking and the best finished tonearms i've seen like a beautiful Ferrari, the Telos looks like a Formula 1 car without the body. everything purpose built, but nothing more. and the quality of materials is like the F1 car too and every part has had materials science heavily investigated.

as far as design; think 'simple.....with perfect execution'. and i mean really simple. basic. elegant and yet somewhat unpretentious. but beautiful in the form follows function perfection.

i'm not sure how soon Joel will have info posted on his website; but the openning picture when you go to his website is the Telos looking from straight behind the arm.

as far as how the Telos improves on the Talea 2 i'd say that you hear the Talea in the Telos and vica versa; that same neutrality and energetic attack and foundation. but when you hear the Telos things only hinted at on the Talea are fully developed on the Telos. the music all of a sudden has all this completness, like real life. up till now, only better 15ips 1/4 master dubs have the ease and solidity that the Talea brings to most Lps. it's hard for me to describe. if the Talea 2 used to be a 99.2 out of 100. now the Talea 2 is about 88 to the Telos's 99 out of 100......and every other tonearm i've heard is below 85.

the Telos has destroyed the previous reference points completely in my mind.

so yes, in my world view, the NVS/Telos/A90 would be the top of the heap. i know that Joel is working with Wave Kinetics on the arm board solution; but i am not sure what it will be. i do expect it will be solved prior to RMAF. i think the Telos will be on the NVS and on the Galibier at RMAF as far as i know.

i do ues the NVS screw on clamp for many of my 45's and some 33's, i do miss the vacuum of the Rockport. i purchased a Furutech disc flattner but have not yet used it. i have not done any comparisons with and without the clamp yet; and have not really noticed any obvious differences. i plan on investigating this issue when i get the time.

mikelavigne September 10, 2011 05:21

Mike, it is okay... go ahead and pinch yourself. :-)

unoear September 10, 2011 04:24

Thanks for the info Mike. Those look like great arms and carts. Having a mono and stereo cart at the ready has to be very easy. Since I have only one arm my table I will just stick with the stereo carts and see if I can't upgrade to a higher level when the time comes.

mikeduke September 10, 2011 03:39

Sounds like the Telos is revolutionary. And this right on the heels of what was just very recently the latest and greatest arm, the Talea II. Mike, could you please describe how the new Telos improves upon the Talea? When will information come out on the website? Or could you describe a bit more about the arm? What system will it be on at RMAF?

Albert Porter has been listening to his 12" arm on his NVS and had to have a special armboard made up. Can the NVS accommodate a larger arm or will it ned to be redesigned/modified? I assume that this NVS/Telos/A90 is now THE combination to beat.

Also, I'm still curious about the NVS record weight. Do you use it on your new table or do you find it sounds better without one?

peterayer September 09, 2011 22:53

or, i'm right behind Jazdoc in the queue ;-)

i'll add that listening to music thru the Telos has the effect of causing delight and awe of the ability of a system to communicate musical truth. you feel giddy. swept away a bit. sucked into the musical flow.

and this is not something like any 'upgrade' where after a few times it's 'same-o-same-o'. that feeling of overwhelming musical intoxication is what it does every time.

mikelavigne September 09, 2011 21:48

Not much to add regarding the Telos...this one you really gotta hear for yourself. Hard to describe without seeming like a syncophant. I agree that this has made me completely reconsider the Linn hierarchy

I'm right behind Mike in the queue ;-)

jazdoc September 09, 2011 20:22

hi Mike,

currently i'm using 2 arms (1) the Talea 1 with the Miyajima Labs Premium Be mono cartridge, into one of my darTZeel phono cards, and (2) the Talea 2 with the Ortofon A90 into the other phono card in the darTZeel preamp. both are on the NVS.

the new 'news' is that Joel Durand has a new tonearm, the 12" Telos, which i'll have (hopefully) within a month. for the last 6-9 months Joel has brought over various versions of this amazing creation, each one more outragously amazing sounding than the previous, and tested it in my room. initially on the Beat, and for the last few months on the NVS. up till now i've not been able to post about it.

this tonearm has changed how i view the heirarchy of things audio. i've made claims about how unipivots are better than other arms, how arms in general are the most important component by far of the vinyl playback system, and even how vinyl can sound better than the best tapes. i've written about how distortion is prevalent in an audio system, and until you hear it's absense, you really are clueless to reality.

all those 'opinions' are based on my exposure to this game destroying tonearm, the Telos. every session with this arm causes those who have been lucky enough to be witness to babble on about the implications of what we were hearing. you want to pinch yourself to make sure it's real.

and it is real. imagine the concept of a Formula 1 car applied to a tonearm. and this Formula 1 car is not subject to any restrictions. every varaible of tonearm design and execution has been challenged and proven or thrown out, and then every piece has been optimized to the max.

anyway; those are just words on a page. my understanding is that the Telos will be at RMAF to be listened to. i cannot wait for more ears to be exposed to this phenominal product.

mikelavigne September 09, 2011 20:04

Hey Mike. I will go check it out for sure. It seems to be a very nice table. Plus it does look cool. Because I am lazy and I really don't want to try and search this thread, what and how many arms are you using. Also, what Carts are you using.

As for me, Well Tempered just came out with a separate power supply for the Amadeus. I contacted Mike Pranka and he was very impressed with what it did. Plus one of his close friends is also impressed with the results. So I will probably pic that up at some point. Anything I can do to get my system better is something that I will consider.

mikeduke September 08, 2011 15:40

Thanks Mike for your very thorough explanation of LP cleaning. I did a direct comparison between the Audio Desk and my Loricraft PRC4 for some audio buddies. The Audio Desk sure is convenient, but this is the fourth one the guy has had. The Loricraft got the LPs much cleaner IMO and others agreed. I guess it comes down to tradeoffs. The Loricraft and 4-step AIVS solutions are very time consuming.

Your comments about listening past the noise (tics and pops) inherent in old/dirty vinyl is interesting. I have a hard time fully engaging in the music with this distraction, so I try to clean as best I can and listen less to damaged LPs.

On a different note, I noticed in one of your pictures that your record weight/clamp is sitting on the new platform while the record is spinning. Do you find it sounds better without the clamp?

Enjoy that incredible system and room.

peterayer August 18, 2011 21:26

Mike,

Thanks for the encouraging reply.

I think the table, arm, & cartridge combo is pretty impressive / special. Very much worth the wait, but I hated the long wait & didn't want to just move into another table temporarily. Sooo I waited.

I'm still waiting on the base & hope to see it next week, according to JT.. I'm having a 316 stainless arm board built & should be ready by midweek, thus the question on the height difference over the wood. Thank You for supplying the measurement.
I may experiment with some other metals as well in due time. I have access to a cnc machine & other metals as well.

This should be fun, as this table is so damn nice & has some flexibility.

Enjoy

Gary

grr6001 August 18, 2011 18:21

Thank you for the quick and comprehensive reply.
Regards
Kostas

kkatsipanos August 18, 2011 16:58

hello Kostas,

Would you also be kind to describe how you clean your CDs and how you get the max out of them?

the short answer is that i don't currently do anything to treat CD's, and have not regularly for a few (maybe 4 or 5) years. it's not that i don't think they can be improved; i know they can be a little better, and possess the means to make them better. but the degree of improvement that can still be found thru various treatments is simply no longer worth the trouble.

allow me to explain.

10 years ago when i was using the Linn CD-12 for CD's and the Marantz SA-1 for SACD's i typically had a CD demag unit next to my listening chair. i also experimented with various different CD treatments as far as the cleaners, i tried the green pens, the black markers, and all that stuff. most of it made a difference, and mostly a positive difference for whatever reason. then i went to the EMM Labs gear and i found that the treatments made a little less difference, but the over-all performance improved. so somehow the Emm Labs gear closed the gap to the potential of the format to some degree.

i upgraded my EMM Labs gear twice more over 5 years, each time the tweaks made a little less improvement, but the overall performance improved. again; my opinion was that the gap of potential improvement for tweaks was less as the gear improved.

around 4 years ago a friend was working on the Tourmaline Guns (a modified hair dryer) and used my room for some of the research. this treatment went to another step up for CD's, but only lasted 15 minutes. for a few months i was religiously using this treatment on CD's and loving it.

then i got the Playback Designs MPS-5; which again moved the performance up and reduced the net affect of the Tourmaline Gun. later there were a couple of software upgrades for the MPS-5 which further improved the CD performance and reduced potential improvement.

finally; my son burned about 1/2 my 4000 Cd's onto a server, and i got a couple thousand hirez files downloaded onto my server. so my digital listening culture has moved to more server based listening and occasional disc listening. i've made a few changes in my server in terms of reasonance control and software improvement to the degree that my server now equals or exceeds the performance of discs.

between the reduced potential effects of tweaks, and the use of the server, i've stopped worrying about tweaking CD's.

then with the progressive improvement of both my vinyl and tape sources; i'm more and more listening to digital primarily when i'm multi-tasking. i still love the way CD's sound, and there are still cases where new music that i like is only on CD.

i would not argue with anyone who does agressive CD treatments. but with the very top level digital players tweaking is less compelling to do.

It's always educational and fascinating witnessing the evolution of your system.

thanks. it a learning path for me too. i keep getting surprised by things on a regular basis. it would be a bore if that was not the case.

mikelavigne August 18, 2011 16:13

Hello,

Would you also be kind to describe how you clean your CDs and how you get the max out of them?

It's always educational and fascinating witnessing the evolution of your system.

Thanks

Kostas

kkatsipanos August 18, 2011 12:22

That was a great post, Mike...
a really FUN and COMICAL read!

Thanks :-)

-Sam

c1ferrari August 18, 2011 06:48

hi Gary,

sharp eye there.

last Thursday night i had 30 people in my room for my Club Meeting and they were mostly blown away by the NVS, and almost all were familiar with my previous tt's. the next day Joel Durrand brought over the Stainless armboard to see how it might compare to the wood.

as i expected; it was immediately evidant it is better than the wood. (this was last Friday, i did not get the isolation shelf until Monday night). the differences were similar to the shelf but not as extreme and the largest benefits were in different areas. the stainless arm board firmed up the bass and increased dynamics everywhere, especially increased the harmonic structure of the music and fleshed it out, added transient snap and overall focus, added air and space. the music was more substantive and involving.

i had a sheet of paper with the info on the stainless arm board, but i cannot seem to find it now. i did place my metal ruler on it and it appears to be 4mm higher. when i find the spec on the steel i'll let you know. i think Jonathan will offer the stainless armboard as an upgrade.

i can't say it will help every arm and cartridge equally; but it's a no-brainer with the Talea 2 and A90.....ya gotta do it.

i'm waiting to hear one situation where any metal sounds better than stainless steel for ultimate performance, so far it's like 10 and 0 that i've seen.

on Monday night when i heard what the shelf did added to what the arm board did on Friday, it's almost too much. the damn tt is alive!! i wish my club had heard this last Thursday night.....as good as it sounded.....it's on another planet now.

mikelavigne August 18, 2011 04:59

hi Peter,

thanks. as far as my Lp hygiene, i'd say i could be better, but i'm happy with my approach.

my Lp cleanliness philosophy is mostly about maximum listening time. the occasional tick does not bother me, and the better the music, the less i care about surface noise. i'd rather hear the 'life' in an original pressing and a little noise than a squeaky clean mediocre re-issue or later mundane pressing. noise is typically in another 'plane' in the soundstage from the music anyway. and for my own private listening, i rarely worry about it. visitors have a varying tolerance for noise, so i try to be sensitive to their preferences.

in my early years of Lp collecting, i would devote time monthly to cleaning Lps. i used a VPI 16.5 record cleaner, and it made so much noise that i would only do it when my wife was gone. i'd do 50 Lps in an afternoon. over 7 or 8 years i cleaned 3500-4000 Lps. i would occasionally clean new Lps, but not always.

then when i moved to my new room 7 years ago the VPI was too loud for the hallway outside my room; so i puchased a Loricraft record cleaner. it used the thread and quieter vaccuum, but took longer. it did a slightly better overall job than the VPI since it did not allow dirt to be put back on the Lps. but......it took so long a rarely used it.

then last year i puchased a large classical collection, sold my Loricraft, and puchased the Audio Desk Record Cleaning System....from Germany. not cheap, $3500 list price. the Audio Desk cleaner uses both ultrasonics and friction from rotating brushes to deep clean the Lps, both sides at a time, and does it AUTOMATICALLY!!!!!!

which means, i could clean and listen AT THE SAME TIME!!!

which is great because i like to listen, but cleaning records is not fun. so i used it. in 4 months i cleaned 700+ Lps while i was listening. you push the button on the Audio Desk system as many times as you want it to scrub in minutes. for used Lps i typically pushed it 5 times. then i would go in and listen to the Lp i just cleaned while the other one was being cleaned. when it was cleaned it beeped, which i could hear from my listening chair. i would go out and get it and put it on one of my other tt's. then go start the cleaning process on the next Lp. then go back and listen some more. it was a very fun process of hearing great new fresh music in the collection and getting the Lps cleaned.

i think the Audio Desk does the best deep cleaning of any record cleaner i know of. it does not get every last spec of dirt/dust off as well as the Loricraft did (since the Audio Desk filters it's water), but it lowers the overall noise floor better since it gets the deep dirt. the only way to improve on the Audio Desk would be to do a pre-clean with a steam gun, as there is some surface crud which only steam will loosen. i may get one of those (they are very cheap).

a caution on the Audio Desk; some people have had reliabiliy issues with it especially with the early ones. i have had zero issues. feel free to call me or e-mail if i can answer any other questions about the Audio desk.

as far as my cleaning culture as i listen; my approach is that the least messing with an Lp is best long term. i typically brush about one third of the Lps i play. and use the Zerodust on my stylus about every 2nd or 3rd side very carefully. about once a session i will use the Magic Eraser very carefully, and then typically i will use a bit of RR LP#9 liquid stylus cleaner to loosen gunk.

i rarely clean new Lps; and mostly do not reclean Lps once cleaned. it's just not enough fun. i make no claims my approach is perfect.....but it keeps me listening. and with good turntables and great set-up.....noise is simply not a significant issue for me.

the bottom line is whatever approach gets you listening to the most music is the most correct. it's a balance to get the most benefit for the least effort while pleasing your ears.

OTOH if you happen to find a perfectly clean Lp 100% of the time to be most important then be happy and enjoy.

mikelavigne August 18, 2011 04:19

Mike, thanks. it will worth the trip to Barry's to hear the NVS.

mikelavigne August 18, 2011 03:07

Hi Mike,

Very Nice, can you interject your opinion on the differences between the wood arm board & the stainless?
Which grade stainless? 316? & is it 1/8 or 1/4" higher than the wood.

Early on, I was intrigued by the use of stainless on this table & thought it might be a good fit.

Thanks
Gary

grr6001 August 18, 2011 01:17

Hello Mike,

I love the new photos of the TT and rack, thanks. I've been wondering about your record care regimen and I don't want to read through 44 system pages. Could you briefly describe for us, or give a link, if and how you clean your records, the fluids, which RCM, demag, etc. Do you occasionally degauze your system with the Cardas Sweep LP? That kind of stuff. I'm most interested in how you get the max from your LPs. Thanks, Peter

peterayer August 17, 2011 21:16

That table looks sweet. I hope to get up to Barry's when gets his all setup.

mikeduke August 17, 2011 13:14

Sam,

Ki has hinted he is 'culling' his herd, so the number may be fluid. i've asked him to list them, he changed the subject. i know he has to bring them into his house when his wife is gone.....haha!!....he has a large house but those decks are big mothers. and he has a number of pretty nice sets of speakers too.

at least i can bring my new phono cartridges into the house and no one is the wiser. :^) although my wife keeps asking me how many tape decks i have to see whether my answer might change. i think she thinks Ki has been a bad influence.

i think i'm bad enough without any help.

mikelavigne August 17, 2011 13:14

Pictures of the NVS Isolation Shelf.

NVS on shelf

from lower and closer

from the back. you can see that the platform goes to the edge of the adona top rack.

engraved name on front edge

the isolation shelf integrates nicely.

mikelavigne August 17, 2011 05:59

Mike,

Ki has over 50 R2R's??
I don't know if I even have 50 tapes, haha :-)

-Sam

c1ferrari August 17, 2011 05:52

Lets see some pictures!

sorry. i listened too late last night and never got around to taking pictures. i'll try to get that done tonight.

an added note about my listening perceptions; i failed to mention the additional detail and focus the platform delivered, as well as total absense of congestion on the peaks. until you hear confusion/distortion on peaks cleaned up, you assume that's the way it is. these attributes impart an ease and listenability that draw you into the music.

mikelavigne August 16, 2011 18:44

Lets see some pictures!

jtinn August 16, 2011 16:41