Congratulations, Mike :-) Time to celebrate!

Vbr,
Sam

c1ferrari April 08, 2010 01:56

last week the 7.5m Evolution Acoustics BNC cables came in that go between my dartTZeel preamp and amp arrived. i've been using my Nordost CBID1 (cable break-in device) since Thursday. i did listen this past weekend between sessions on the break in device. last night the 24 hour X 4 period (96 total hours) of break-in ended.

i already had a short pair of these same cables between the Playback Designs and the dart pre, which i got in early Feb.

i am literally blown away by what i now hear....as was a listener friend who visited last night.

in January at CES i heard the Evolution/darTZeel room at CES/T.H.E. Show. it sounded fantastic. of course; it had essentially my same system with 2 big differences. first; it had the $135k 1000 watt darTZeel monoblocks (which came to me for a month after CES). second, it had these cables both between the Playback Designs and the dart pre, and between the dart pre and the dart monos. i had already had a short demo pair of these cables in my system....when i heard the system in Las Vegas it was easy for me to hear how much these cables were contributing to the overall magic of the room. IMHO they made a larger difference than the monos to what i heard there. now.....i know that is true.

the combination of perfect impedence matching and the cables themselves, fully broken in, in the system simply completes my system. it dots the 'i', crosses the 't'.

for 10 years i've waited, planned, worked, listened, changed homes, built a room, changed gear, changed speakers, done this and done that......all in pursuit of music reproduction performance i now, as of last night, am finally hearing. earlier this year i figured out where my room needed some work, got that handled, and i knew i was getting close.

i'm sure it does not measure perfectly, nor do i necassarily want that. i'm sure it will not float everyone's boat, no system will. but it's exactly what i like, and i'm very satisfied...no, i'm more than satisfied, i'm at peace and full of joy about it.

yes; i could buy the dart monoblocks, or the Evolution MM7's or maybe an Equi=Tech Wall Cabinet System. but i don't think i will do any of those things. i'm happy and have no plans for any system changes or upgrades. in fact specifically; i only want to worry about the music and software. recently i bought 2000+ classical Lps and have had a blast cleaning and listening to new classical music, what a journey it has been just with the first 30 to 40 of those.

i'd like to thank the Academy......er, um, eh, what i mean is, i'd like to thank all those who's honest feedback over the years helped me to 'keep on keep'n on' to this point. since i needed to evolve at least as much as my system/room to be able to find this.

i'm not finished with my source development 'quite'. and i know this is not any end of the road. however; for me it is a specific point in time which i've not seen before.

i know this is sort of a weird post; but this is how i feel right now. i've been looking forward to writing this for about the last 6 months as i saw things coming together....and was hopeing that when i got all the pieces in place that the result would be....'this'.

mikelavigne April 08, 2010 00:16

hi Sam,

the Cello circuit repro built by Charles King is very very good. it brings a very very refined, lower noise, and richer timbre sound to the Studer. it's smoother and more natural. the dynamics and bass slam are as good to possibly slightly better than the stock circuit. it does not add any darkness or rob any detail. it reminds me of my darTZeel phono stage, which is the very highest compliment i can pay to electronics.

my only caution is that in balanced (XLR) output i did not like it in my particular system. it lost it's magic, i preferred the stock Studer circuit. that may just be my system.

i'm planning on buying one when i can afford it.

mikelavigne April 07, 2010 13:05

Aaron,

i think it's very difficult to absolutely say with certainty that one component is slightly colored and another one spot on when talking about me hearing the Caliburn 4 times in shows but living with my Rockport for 8 years. is direct drive 'energy and drive' to the music a 'coloration'? if it is then my Studer on the best master tapes has that 'coloration' too.....in spades! one must draw conclusions based on the best possible reference one has.

please note i only said that in my perception that in listening to the Caliburn....

i did not hear quite the energy and drive to the music i hear from the better direct drives

.....which is not to say that the Caliburn (or any of the very best belt drive tt's) do not have energy and drive, they just don't have it (or the ultimate in continuousness) that the better dd's do....to my ears.

i agree that the Caliburn is a masterpiece; but design choices for it do come with sonic characterisitcs. i do think that if the Caliburn had direct drive exectuted to the degree that the rest of it is exectued it would be a little bit better (and i would own one).

mikelavigne April 07, 2010 12:49

regarding my perceptions of the Caliburn (based on hearing it four different times at shows); i think it is very accurate in speed, i did not hear any speed related issues at all. but....i also did not hear quite the energy and drive to the music i hear from the better direct drives. to me it's the overall balance of attributes which determine my preferred tt performance.

Hi Mike,

The system is looking better than ever and I have no doubt that the sonic presentation is following suit.

I can't help but wonder if your preference for the "energy" of a direct drive turntable that was lacking in the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn presentation is in fact a personal (and perfectly valid) preference for some small degree of colouration or identifiable sonic signature. I propose this hypothesis only because of the extreme lengths that Mark Doehmann and the Continuum design team went to in order to minimise or eliminate all sources of colouration. I have no doubt that with the right implementation (the key word here) both belt drive and direct drive turntables have the potential to be speed accurate and stable, the latter perhaps being the more important criteria here.

Best Regards,
Aaron

drajreynolds April 07, 2010 10:23

Greetings, Mike,

I'm curious of your sonic impressions pertinent to Cello electronics and the 820. Sounds :-) like an exciting development!

Appreciate your thoughts,
Sam

c1ferrari April 07, 2010 05:36

Marc,

it's difficult to clearly assign specific characteristics to high torque unless you are the tt designer; but i think your analogy is logical. high torque in itself is maybe important; but it's likely the main issue is steady speed. how the servo deals with inaccuracies is important, and the sophistication of that system, whether it's closed loop or open loop, and just how naturally 'cogless' the motor is. i'm sure i'm missing other factors too. anyway; it's the correct combination of all these factors optimally exectuted which result in the magic of the best direct drives.

regarding my perceptions of the Caliburn (based on hearing it four different times at shows); i think it is very accurate in speed, i did not hear any speed related issues at all. but....i also did not hear quite the energy and drive to the music i hear from the better direct drives. to me it's the overall balance of attributes which determine my preferred tt performance.

i did just go read the posts over on Albert's thread regarding the Sutherland. i have a strobe disc which works on the same principle. i recently used it to adjust the Garrard when i installed the new Dobbins copper top platter. likely the Sutherland potentially is more accurate. i just might get me one of those.

as far as format comparisons, in some respects there is a bit of covergence going on. in the past digital simply could not command a place in a high powered listening session. once vinyl was played we never went back to digital. now; with the Playback Designs MPS-5, digital really has the characteristics of analog; it's got depth and width, it's smooth and with an ease in the high frequencies, it's got naturalness and rich tonality in the mids. it does not sound 'digital'. no; it does not have the degree of these things that good, or very good, or top vinyl has.....but i can switch from digital to vinyl to tape and back to digital and no one complains about the digital. it's just the music. that was a big step. in the last 6 months my vinyl has dramatically improved for a number of reasons.....which has brought it a bit closer to some of the RTR tapes.....in a few cases real close. however; there is a fundamental advantage to 15ips 1/4" master dubs in terms of how real music sounds; in microdyamics, vividness, ambience retrieval, and the sense of musical flow. it's just closer to the source. and there are some tapes which simply humble the best Lps. and this is with the stock Studer output electronics. i have auditioned the Cello output electronics on the Studer....and will buy it when i can afford it. this will move tape performance further from the very best vinyl.

mikelavigne April 06, 2010 03:14

Hi Mike, is the benefit of high torque direct drive on a loud/complex passage on vinyl analagous to 2 cars suddenly having to take a steep incline on a mountain road-a car with a smaller engine can maintain the same speed as a more powerful car, but the latter will maintain a more effortless, smoother transition? Does this translate into hightening the rhythmic impact of music, and so uncluttering frequencies further up the spectrum?
I take from your comments about the Caliburn that the perception of extra detail it provides takes overall second place to the perception of extra rhythmic momentum that only high torque can provide.
Considering a new design like The Beat, compared to your Studer R2R and MPS5 cd, are the 3 mediums converging in sound quality terms, or are they as wide apart as ever?
Btw, have you seen Albert Porter's Thread recently where he is using a Sutherland Engineering Timeline which can measure speed stability on 33/45 to a few parts per billion?
Regards.

spiritofmusic April 06, 2010 00:15

Microstrip;

i have a good friend with a Forsell, i think it is the 'Air Force One' as i recall. it does have a certain specialness to it's presentation that i really enjoy.....a naturalness if you will...very smooth with great ease to the music. my friend has had to really massage it to get it to settle down and behave, but once he figured it out he has really enjoyed it.

mikelavigne April 05, 2010 16:44

>the Rockport simply digs deeper into the grooves and 'communicates' musical truth. in a way that trancends discussion of parts of the music. the musical reproduction becomes more real due to the musical nuance and delicacy revealed.
>end of citation

I was discussing the sound of the Forsell turntable and tonearm in similar terms with a friend some time ago. My experience is with small compared to yours - I owned many Linn's, Oracle's, Pink Triangle, Sota, an SME30 and a Clearaudio Reference, but for me my current Forsell Air Force One surpasses all others in communicating the music because of the way it "fuses" the micro dynamics in the global. The Forsell is like a diva - it needs special tables and the fly-wheeled motor electronics is a disaster, belt material and tension are critical but once you manage to solve all its small engineering problems it is in another level. Your Rockport should be next one!

microstrip April 04, 2010 16:44

Marc,

i have no experience with the Townshend, nor have i heard about it or read about it....so i can't really comment one way or another. my personal experience with a dampning trough was that it limited life and dynamics in the music....but whether the application used on the Townshend potentially could cause that i have no idea.

i've heard the Caliburn a few times. while i consider it possibly the most detailed tt i've heard; ultimately i hear what it does not do (as well) compared to the Rockport or other better direct drive tt's. music is timing. period. the best tt's at keeping the time are the one's i enjoy the most. i still enjoy lots of very good belt drive tt's, just not as much.

as far as high torque; i do hear what higher torque contributes in terms of leading edge energy and bass performance. i've not ever heard the same exact tt with low torque and high torque myself; so who is to say what is causing what. maybe it's not so much high torque as the exact correct torque that is the issue.

The Beat not only has high torque, but also it has the ability to adjust the torque. my Loricraft UPS-301 AR power supply for my Dobbins-Garrard 301 has adjustable torque. i've watched and heard the effect of fine-tuning the torque on that baby, there is a performance improvement in nuance with torque spot on.

high torque does provide the drive to overcome the effect of groove modulation. during musical peaks the friction of the greater groove modulation can slightly slow down the platter. whereas our ears are not that sensitive to slight changes in volume; the tinyiest amount of change in speed does distort the sounjd and reduce coherence. you can hear this stuff.

ultimately these technical approaches only matter if a tt/arm/cart communicate the music effectively. i love the way all my tt's put a smile on my face and involve me with the music. i do think that direct drive/idler drive, done right, brings me closest to the music.

mikelavigne April 03, 2010 18:46

Thank you Mike for such a detailed 4 way comparison. I had been unsure of 301/sp10 modifications, and now there appears to be a more practical/superior option.
Despite high torque being a very valid way to go, another turntable on my final upgrade list, the Townshend Audio Rock V, despite being belt drive, has a unique solution to vinyl coloration in form of a damping trough which eliminates vibrations at cartridge end, resulting in a very neutral sound which compares very favorably with master tape.
Do you think this is an equally valid way to go to reach audio nirvana, or are you convinced high torque is now the major deciding factor?
The only reason I am unsure whether high torque is the be all and end all is that the Continuum Caliburn, which is up there with the Rockport as world's best, is traditional belt drive, albeit highly sophisticated.

spiritofmusic April 03, 2010 17:11

Marc,

i've been thinking since yesterday how to answer your question. all 4 of these tt's; the Rockport Sirius III, The Beat, the Dobbins-Technics SP-10 Mk3, and the Dobbins-Garrard 301, are really wonderful tt's. any one of them would be a tt i could live with forever. i consider myself lucky to be able to enjoy three of them together.

i suppose i could write 50 pages on your question; but that's not gonna happen. i do this for fun. in that spirit i will do my best.

The Beat relates to each of the other three tt's differently.

the following impressions are based on the Reed 2P arm with the Ortofon A90 on each tt.

relative to the Garrard, The Beat is similar to the Mk3. the new Dobbins copper top platter on the Garrard has altered the difference here. formerly, the Mk3 was easily quieter than the Garrard; the new platter on the Garrard has maybe cut the advantage in low noise for the Mk3 in half. but The Beat is slightly quieter still than the Mk3. the Garrard has that extra sense of 'heft' and 'ease' in the bass compared to the more linear bass in the Mk3....and The Beat is just a nudge more linear than the Mk3. The Garrard is not quite able to equal the bass impact of the Mk3 and most certainly not the impact of The Beat. as far as detail, mid range clarity, and top end smoothness and air.......it's more difficult to define differences. all three are wonderful. the Mk3 and The Beat are 'more wonderful' in these areas than the Garrard. The Beat goes that little bit 'beyond' in these areas....simply a 'more' refined sound. farther down the road.

soundstage wise; the Garrard is very good, but i would call it normal. the Mk3 energizes the whole soundstage to a greater degree than the Garrard and defines the ambient limits of the recording better. then The Beat goes further down that road.

putting it all together; the Garrard is an intimate and emotional tt which makes everything beautiful. it's a toe tapper for sure and you are never neutral about the music. the Mk3 brings more a sense of energy, nuetrality and drama, and is a truth sayer. i use to use the word 'explosive' for the Mk3. now my definition of an explosive tt is The Beat. even though it's only a little better than the Mk3 when you break down the parts; overall it goes to another level. i have never heard bass impact and energy that i hear on The Beat, but it was not only the bass. just the overall feeling of musical flow.

the Rockport? really on a whole different level. The Beat does surpass the Rockport in aspects of bass performance....as does the Mk3 to a lesser degree. but who cares? the Rockport simply digs deeper into the grooves and 'communicates' musical truth. in a way that trancends discussion of parts of the music. the musical reproduction becomes more real due to the musical nuance and delicacy revealed. it may not quite have the macrodynamics in some respects, but the Rockport is unsurpassed at microdynamics.

all the really hard stuff to get a tt to do, the stuff that all the engineering dollars have been put toward; the Rockport does without working up a sweat.

still; the apparent performance difference between the Rockport and The Beat (or the Mk3 or 301 for that matter) is not night and day. but with repeated listening the magic of the Rockport is on another level. The Beat comes the closest.

that is my personal take on your question.

there may be folks out there who have a different sonic compass than myself who might prefer The Beat to the Rockport. i could understand that easily.

a story.

during the Sunday afternoon of Steve Dobbins visit, we were listening to the Who's 'Underture' from Tommy, a 'Simply Vinyl' pressing that is wonderful. i have 6 or 7 other 'Tommy's that are not nearly as good. anyway; i must say that The Beat was made to play this music. amazing. the bass, and space, and articulation and everything was great. i've played this cut on my other tt's to great enjoyment, but not like this. and then IT happened. one of the bass notes in the right middle of the soundstage literally exploded like a cannot shot. there was a sense of a ring of energy with a hole in the middle. the most physical musical moment of reproduced music i've ever heard. we both were taken aback. what the hell happened?

anyway, i hope my answer is helpful.

mikelavigne April 02, 2010 22:51

Sam and Diva,

thanks. i've been enjoying the Collection. it will likely take me a year or more to fully go thru it. there is no hurry.

mikelavigne April 02, 2010 21:28

Mike, a very happy Easter to you. Can you go into a bit more detail as to the sound quality of 'The Beat' turntable, how you find it superior to the 301 and sp10, and how it stacks up against the Rockport? Tape is out for me, I am finally satisfied with my emm labs cd, but as a vinyl devotee I am considering a final ever turntable purchase and am really curious about this direct drive renaissance, regards.

spiritofmusic April 02, 2010 00:07

Congratulations Mike. I am sure many of the 1500 are a gem.

gallant_diva April 01, 2010 15:20

Ooh...40 cents/album - sounds great, Mike! Now, I need to find something similar in 1/2" or 1/4", 1/2 track tape :-)

Regards,
Sam

c1ferrari April 01, 2010 14:49

sometimes you just get lucky. tonight i brought home 2000+ Classical Lps, a collection i've been trying to purchase for 6 months. i purchased it from the daughter of the deceased owner, a gentleman i had once met. he had assembled it over many years. 6 months ago i had a chance to briefly look thru it; but i only looked at 10 or so Lps. it was in 18 heavy boxes.
lately as my system and tt's have improved i've increased my Classical Lp listening to close to 50%. i still don't know that much about classical but i'm learning.

i've now looked thru 4 boxes and inspected about 100 lps visually. every one looks perfect. i randomly selected 50 or so Lps and have played 8 so far. they play mint-, as good as an uncleaned used record can sound.

it's hard for me to judge the value/specialness of the Lps as my Classical experience is limited; but i recognized many titles. lots of late 50's, 60's and early 70's stuff. lots of RCA's, Londons, Angels, Archiv, DG, VOX, Westminster, 35mm Command Classics, Columbias, Seraphim, etc etc. i have not seen many Deccas.

there are a few Murray Hill box sets; what should i expect from those?

my hope was that i would end up with some good Classical Lps that would widen my musical boundaries and fill in my 'approx 1500' Classical Lps.

this collection cost me $800, which is a fair amount of money; but so far i feel i've stumbled upon a real treasure.

i feel lucky.

mikelavigne April 01, 2010 05:12

Fred and Jfreh,

from others using this machine i've heard that the ultimate 'clean' is holding down the 'button' for '6' tones. which loosely translates to 6 minutes of cleaning prior to the dry cycle.

in any case i sold my Loricraft to fund the Audio Desk purchase. so i 'only' have this record cleaner now.

the other issue for me is that whatever allows me to listen to more music i like. i can listen while this machine is working, which is a good part of the benefit.

i could see the Loricraft, since it uses a clean 'thread' for every clean, might have 'some' additional benefit after the Audio Desk. but the VPI 16.5, which i owned and used for 4000-5000 lps over 10 years, does not use a clean suction tube every time; therefore it tends to leave 'some' residue.

OTOH your experiment with Albert had a contrary result.

i will try doing 2 separate cleaning cycles on the Audio Desk and see whether i can hear a difference.

likely the 'Ultimate' clean might be to have 2 Audio Desk cleaners; the second one would always have essentially completely clean water and would be only rinsing. if i add another cleaner i'll likely try that....which would retain the ease of use i enjoy.

mikelavigne March 25, 2010 14:39

Hi This is what we did at Albert's recently. Cleaned using his Oddesey (sp?) listened, cleaned again via the ultrasonic listened (much better) then a rinse on the oddesey again (even better).

Fred I agree with you. We only had time to do this to 3 or 4 lp's, but it was a consistent outcome. The ultrasonic must "scrub" loose more material then the vacumn type machines can more easily remove.

Anyway, our ears weren't lying. And you and I have had similar results...

jfrech March 25, 2010 11:45

I will note that Tbg had the unit in his system and concluded that its use in conjunction with a normal vaccuum machine such as the better VPI's was even better than either unit separately. It might be interesting to clean several records with the ultrasonic machine, listem to them, then clean them again with Mike's existing machine and re-listen

fcrowder March 25, 2010 07:05

as far as 'all because of' i'd stop far short of that.

just a little bit of light-hearted embellishment on my part. :-)

The Playback Designs cdp sounds absolutely wonderful with just a stock cord. I would be giddy if I had one in my system. I’m very happy that the two work so well together (DC just expressed that too btw). That is great!

cpk March 24, 2010 14:32

Hi Mike,

thanks I just went back and read your earlier post. I have heard that same cleaner at Albert's a few months ago. I had the same conclusion to. I wonder if it's the ultrasonic part really making the difference? Anyway who cares if it sounds great :)

jfrech March 24, 2010 11:06

Hi Mike,

That's great that your RCM is performing brilliantly! Good luck to your team and travel safely :-)

Vbr,
Sam

c1ferrari March 24, 2010 04:56

Now come on Mike you know that's all because of the Tel Wire Cord you got on your Playback Designs ;-)

i agree that the Tel Wire power cord did improve the performance over the Jena Labs Fundamental One power cord on the Playbacks Design.....the Tel Wire had more clarity, blacker backgrounds, and microdynamics than the Jena. as far as 'all because of' i'd stop far short of that. but it's doing it's part and i have no plans to change it.

i've also got a Tel Wire HC power cord on the darTZeel amp; although i admit to not doing any sort of A/B in that case with the Jena Labs power cord it replaced. certainly it sounds great there, in any case.

mikelavigne March 24, 2010 03:50