Thanks for the response Mike. Given the circumstances i would of done the same.

If i remember right you live in the Seattle area, i live up near Bellingham. I havent found anybody "locally" that sells vons, so where are you getting yours? are you going straight through Albert? I have always wanted to audition somthing higher up the chain but traveling hundreds of miles makes it less appealing. Any info regarding that would be appreciated. thanks again, Justin

jlind325is August 15, 2006 19:53

Mike, I understand about "things just presented themselves in a way that the opportunity was there to get the VR11's. so i took it." That is how I got my 1027's. The chance was there and I just had to jump on it. Man, VR11's. They are some pretty speakers. They are about 3 1/2 feet taller right? Do you feel that will cause any issue at all for the accoustics in your room? And congrats again. I am sure that it will biring you to another level of nivana.

[email protected] August 15, 2006 15:39

Greg and Justin,

what can i say? as my review/article/ramble mentioned; the only current product on the market that likely can go farther down my road is the VR11SE. things just presented themselves in a way that the opportunity was there to get the VR11's. so i took it.

i have no less love for the VR9's......they are basically the most balanced, capable audio product i've used......without a weakness. every attribute of the VR11's is present in the VR9's......simply to some degree less.

so 'why' the VR11's? 2 years ago at CES when i heard the VR9's and VR11's for the first time (and only time for the VR11's) i was very impressed with everything about the VR9's......i had never heard a speaker with the top to bottom dynamics and coherence of the VR9's. i could not imagine what more the VR11's could do.

then i heard the VR11's and the word 'effortless' attained a whole new context. it reminded me of the first time i played music on my Rockport Sirius III. you imagine how it might sound but simply cannot be prepared for that next level of performance. 'stunning' might be a good word. i had been all jazzed up by the 9's......then with the 11's all i could say was 'oh my god'.......'you gotta be kidding'. at the same time both the 9's and the 11's sounded like crap at that CES at certain times. both speakers really need considerable fine tuning. even though i knew i liked them i knew i had my work cut out for me to get everything out of them.

now that i am comfortable with the whole design approach and adjustment process with the VR9 i am confident i can optimize the 11's.

the 11's have twice the cone surface of the 9's, and are an easier load for my amps......so i will get more clarity and articulation with considerably increased dynamics and ease. with 4 1000 watt 15' subs instead of 2, bass control and slam will be 'silly' good. the bass enclosures are more optimally designed on the 11's for better accuracy. the crossovers in the 11's use a little more uncompromised approach.

considering the design of my room i expect to be able to harness all that neat stuff.

i hope i answered your question.

a week ago i shipped the VR9SE's to the new owner. i recieved a set of loaner VR7SE's until my VR11's arrive. thursday night i set up the '7's and am breaking them in as i type this. they do most things very close to the '9's and the remarkable thing about the '7's and the '9's as well.....they are soooo balanced. just like the '9's they do it all; deep articulate bass, clarity and punch in the mids, natural and extended highs with the right amount of sparkle and see-thru transparency.

it might be that i am so familiar with the Von Schweikerts but the '7's seem much easier to set up. i am enjoying them more now after 5 days than i did with the '9's in the first 6 months. my darTZeel amps are plenty in my very large well-damped room. these are great speakers.

the drivers are not yet broken in but they go deep and are completely coherent.

mikelavigne August 15, 2006 06:29

Mike,

So what prompted the switch to VR-11s? After reading your "review" on the VR9s you sounded completely satisfied, you finally broke their code. Any insight would be appreciated, your thoughts and opinions always make for a fun read! Anyway good luck on breaking the code on the new vons and i cant wait to see them in your beautiful room.

Justin

jlind325is August 14, 2006 19:58

VR 9's sold? I guess it is true. "Life is a journey not a destination." Happy hunitng.

gregadd July 26, 2006 01:42

Hi Mike, I noticed your solicitation above for my comments regarding our fun day at your "Audio Barn", you were a great host, Thank you. Really amazing system and room, top shelf indeed. I appreciate the kind words you spoke in person that day upon hearing the $4200 MSRP Theta Compli with a $995 upgrade by The Upgrade Company. I would like to reiterate some of your comments here: 1- The Upgrade Company Theta Compli to be "the best sounding player you had heard under $10,000" 2- "it is very musical" 3- "perhaps more listenable then the $22k EMM Labs but not as resolute". 4- You also stated that the upgraded Theta Compli was "very listenable but without the detail robbing drawbacks of tubed output stages present in most modded gear." I appreciate those comments, they will help other readers to realize the high value we can provide them.
Thank you for the opportunity to respond in your thread.

mrhiendaudio July 21, 2006 20:45

Thanks Mike
Yes my trip is still on going.

If we stick to just the 2ch portion this is my setup
A halo C2 processor
an Esoteric DV50S
A bryston 4b-ST
and JM labs 1027Be's
My next step is to replace the monster stuff I have with
Shunyata. And then to get an Ayre K-1xe pre for 2ch only.
But again, your system is just fantasic. I have heard VR4jr's before at the HE2004 show. I was just floored. They were some of the best sounding speakers I have heard. And I heard the VR9's but I trully think the room was too small for me to really enjoy them.
But I left there thinking that VR should stay on my radar. And it has.
Mike

mikeduke July 17, 2006 14:27

mdoukas, thanks for the kind words. i've heard the VR4SR and was very impressed by it. enjoy your quest and i'm happy to help show the way a little.

the musical reproduction discovery pathway is fun.

mikelavigne July 17, 2006 13:59

for those who have not already seen the thread on it; Positive Feedback Online did post some ramblings of mine that approximate a review of the VR9 speakers.

here is a link;

VR9SE review

the thread about it is here;

thread

i tried many times to sit down and describe the VR9's but until the last few weeks the picture had been incomplete.

enjoy.

mikelavigne July 09, 2006 14:58

Henryhk, thanks for the explaination. the whole 'not there' feeling of the darTZeel is what i love. they are 'not' tubes and 'not' ss.....they help the speakers do the same.....and you end up with music.

yet there is more; the dynamics and sweetness you mention that allows you to relax and at the same time are energized and pulled into the music.

thanks.

mikelavigne July 09, 2006 14:51

Jayctoy, as always....thanks for your kind comments.

i am nearly listening in the nearfield. the tweeters are 10 feet 5 inches apart.....my ears are exactly 11 feet from the tweeters. i can move my chair slightly forward and get a bit more soundstage width at a slight reduction in center fill and focus.....i prefer where i'm at but it's likely a matter taste.

yes, French Fries has been enjoying the VR9's.....but still likes his Andras as he should.....i do too.

mikelavigne July 09, 2006 14:45

Mike very nice room again,Are you listening on a nearfield
distance? What is the distance from your listening chair
to the speakers? I also notice French Fries bought vr9se.
Onother Andra user.Thank Bon

jayctoy July 07, 2006 19:24

postscrpt to Gallant_diva; of course you are welcome any time you are in the area to return.....and i hope it is sooner...not later.

mikelavigne June 25, 2006 14:39

Gallant_diva,

i decided to simply delete my post on digital and repost it here so as not to confuse things. the following was the post Gallant_diva responded to directly above.

******************

i tried your suggestion of more speaker separation and more toe-in.....you were right. i moved each speaker as much as 6 inches wider and 6 inches forward and experiemented with toe-in.

i must have tried 20 different spots. of course, haveing speakers on castors on hardwood made this easy even though they weigh 375 pounds each.....i can move them with one finger.

i ended up at about 5 inches wider and about 2 inches forward of where they were when you were here. they are toed in a few degrees more and now are pointed a couple of inches outside my ears instead of a couple of inches outside my shoulders.

what i got was better image focus and a good deal more layering and depth; at a very slight loss of image width. the center image is now much more substantial and weighty.
the overall feeling is of more involvement.

thankyou for your honest feedback and i apologize for not trying this when you were here.

**************************

mikelavigne June 25, 2006 14:36

Mike, the thing is it was by deduction....guesswork. THe dealerships where I live do not loan out equip for home audition. Some of the details and problems therein are in my system thread.

For what its worth, the ASR to me was all about being dead quiet, no disortion whatsoever, has the air thing going, and gave the impression that you were being transported to there as they being transported into your room..if you know what I mean. Quite stunning, really. Bass may have been just a bit light? Very neutral in the strictest sense of the word.

No doubt a great amp. But I ended prefering the NHB which is really I think a taste thing: The NHB had a sweetness of tone while detail retrieval was excellent. Soundstage wise while ASR tended to provide a mid hall perspective, NHB just made the speakers disappear. I felt more immmediacy (SET like?), and thus compelled to be more involved with the NHB. There is that warm feeling that stops short of being intrusive. More than anything else it was the difference in character that titled me in favor of one over the other.

In a way, its kind of the difference between Wilson and Kharma speakers to me. One earns my respect, the other just seduces me.

henryhk June 25, 2006 12:34

I am posting my response to what you said on the Digital Product Review thread.

I am so glad that my suggestion for moving your speakers apart has worked well for you. That is great. I was also glad that you also liked and kept my suggestions for some changes in the tweeter setup. This is the best reward for me when a fellow listener benefits from my suggestion.

As I expected your system could have better imaging and more layering of the soundstage. I would also imagine you have more depth now. There are just so many parameters in system setup, including the electronics and room acoustics that it is impossible (at least for me) to just follow dealer's advice or manufacturer's recommendations. Ultimately, you are the judge because it is your system and you are living with it.

As far as I am concerned, I can only wish to listen to your system again, now with these changes. I just have this "bad" habit of constantly tweaking my system and fine tuning the positioning of my speakers. I think it stems from the fact that Apogee are very fussy when it comes to placement. It has taken my years to find their optimal placement. Recently, I made some changes in the resistors and caps in their crossover, and I end up moving the speakers one inch wider apart on each side. Such is the atrocity of this hobby that even a small component change can warrant a big system wide change.

Congatulations

gallant_diva June 24, 2006 19:47

Henry,

curious how you felt the dart compared with the ASR, and were you able to compare the dart pre also with the ASR using the ASR integral battery powered pre. i ask since it's a comparison that others have asked me about that i have not done.

in any case, congrats on the dart(s).

mikelavigne June 24, 2006 18:04

Hey Mike...i've recently been auditioning various amps...Dart, ASR, Gryhon, ML, CJ etc....and ended up ordering the Darts. Can't wait! Boy oh boy those things were truly truly musical.

henryhk June 24, 2006 15:07

hi Bill,

thanks for the kind words.

any gear benefits from extended warm up and settling. in this case the Reimyo had been in the car likely 7 or 8 hours unplugged and the Theta likely 90 minutes. they were both immediately set-up on the rack that Bill brought, plugged in and discs put in and played to allow a reasonable warm-up time. we then talked awhile about my set-up and then played my gear including some vinyl for about an hour or so before any comparitive listening was done. as we used Bill's Opus and MM cables there was no advantage given there. the power cords and racks were the same.

i have done likely at least 40 or 50 digital comparisons over the years in my system. assuming broken in gear and at least an hour warm-up gear is not going to change dramatically; unless it has been shipped over a few weeks in cold weather......then it does need a day or so to 'relax'. even in those cases the basic level of resolution is there; but the openness and ease might not be there. the exception is tubed gear which can need more time but that does not apply here.

in this particular comparison the differences were not subtle in the area of refinement and resolution.

i would assume that David Schulte would not have supported this comparison if he felt that his modified gear would be at a significant disadvantage. maybe he would like to comment specifically about his perceptions and whether he believes that further warm-up time might have made much difference.

mikelavigne June 23, 2006 13:23

hi mike,
do you think that your visitors with their digital equipment in hand were at a disadvantage right from the start ?? i am assuming that there digital pieces had been shut down for some time while your piece was plugged in with no down time ??. my experience with digital products "was" that it can take 24-48 hrs to regain their sonics. the only unit that i have not noticed this effect on is my recently modded tact millenium mk3 from aberdeen components. i had commented to anthony on this. i have had the amp modded previously by one of your visitors. the amp took 300hrs + to break in. it never achieved the sound of it now or the bass response that i have . the amp went thru a initial break-in by aberdeen over a weekend before shipping. i had told anthony i have not noticed any shift in the sound of the amp since first playing it. this has never been my experience with a digital product. i was wondering if you find this interesting as well, especially being a digital product. thanks for sharing your comparison of products, as well as a much enjoyable time you must of all had. congradulations on a outstanding sound room to listen to music in.

regards

bill

millenium June 23, 2006 07:38

Larry,

i would expect the DCC2 Signature to equal the DAC6e Signature in DAC performance. i do believe one can surpass (at considerable cost plus a set of interconnects and power cord) the pre section of the DCC2 with a stand-alone pre although it's possible the pre section of the Signature DCC2 is better than the non-Signature which i did listen to.

if there are one's that have switched or upgraded their DCC2 maybe they could comment on that issue.

Mike

mikelavigne June 18, 2006 16:49

.
Mike,
.
Thanks for the review/comparison on the EMM Lab player. Would you guess that the Signature Dcc2 would equal or suprass the Signature DAC6e ?
.
Thanks,
Larry
.

cello June 18, 2006 16:40

Lox, as a representative of the manufacturer of Kharma speakers (since you are their business partner) i object to the form your communications here on this thread. as i know Charles to be such a first class kind of person i would guess he has no idea of your antics. i have always been a friend to Kharma (they quoted me for a long time on their web page) and still am. i love the Kharma speakers (and likely was partially responsible for selling many Kharma's) and if i ever get the chance to hear the Grand Reference i may agree with you. i still refer people to Kharma and love your personal speakers (the 3.2FE). you and i share much regarding our recognition of the importance of acoustic room design.

regarding the Kharma amps.....i have heard the 150's which are nice amps for the money. i have not heard the 350's......but the 150's are not remotely in the class of the darTZeel.

you and i have never corresponded that i know of.

why are you approaching me in such a conflictual way?

mikelavigne June 18, 2006 16:36

yesterday i had 5 guys visit for a fun listening session. although we need no excuse for a session at the audio barn one curiosity was how the new EMM Labs Signature Edition DAC6e and CDSD would compare to the David Schulte (The Upgrade Company) unpgraded Reimyo CDP-777. the Reimyo was one player i had heard that i liked and wondered how redbook on the EMM would compare.

David Schulte himself had flown in from Detroit as well as Max (an Absolute Sound reviewer from Albuquerque) my friend Cyrus and his friend Jeff from Spokane. another happy David Schulte customer Bill lives here in Western Washington also attended. Bill also brought a David Schulte modified Theta Compli Universal player to add to the mix.

any session at the barn typically gets dominated by vinyl and this one was no different. vinyl basically kicks ass.

but before and after the vinyl we did listen to the various digital players. Bill had brought his Grand Prix rack (exactly like mine) and i had enough Jena Labs power cords that we were able to have each player on exactly the same rack and use the same power cord. Bill also brought a 2 meter balanced set of Transparent Opus interconnect which we compared to my Valhalla balanced......we preferred the Opus (no surprise there) so that is what we used for the EMM-Reimyo comparison. as the Compli has no balanced output Bill brought a set of Transparent MM Ref RCA interconnects for that (my experience is that it is very close to the Opus and i know from past experience that i prefer the MM to my Valhalla).

we first listened to the EMM and then the Reimyo. David Schulte was first to speak up; he commented that the EMM was quite a bit better. for a modder to immediately conceed that a product betters his 'baby' showed a lot of class. other comments were basically along those lines. as i never sat in the sweet spot during the EMM-Reimyo comparison my comments are somewhat tempered.

what i heard was that the EMM Labs was a good deal more detailed and refined. you heard farther into the music. there was an ease and relaxed presentation that the Reimyo could not match. OTOH the Reimyo was an outstanding digital player and if we did not have the EMM there would have been no sense of anything missing.

Bill (who had not heard my system for almost 6 months) commented that the new EMM Labs Signature Edition had got closer to my vinyl.....which i agree with.

all this was with redbook.

we did then listen to the Theta Compli which did itself proud. when you consider the Compli is a $3000 list price player with a $1000 mod; and we are comparing it to a $12,000 player with a (???) $3500 mod and a $23,000 digital combo.......the Compli sounded great. yes; it was not as detailed or as refined......but it was very natural and non-digital sounding without any tubed output stage that robs the immediacy and vividness of the music.

if the modded Reimyo represents SOTA of redbook players the EMM Labs Signature Edition simply leaps beyond SOTA redbook to another level.

our session went from about 2pm to about 9pm with lots of vinyl, a bit of single-malt (Lagavulin 16 year old), and just the enjoyment of the company of other music lovers.

mikelavigne June 18, 2006 15:48

French fries, fully agree. It's only het mid's that do a job. Therefore I suggested a long time ago: have a listen to the Kharma Exquisite Grand Reference !. No reviews yet but wait till the first one get's published, even Mike will sell his VRS-9's asap. Same for the Kharma MP-350 mono's. Out are the DarT's. But so far Mikee woun't listen to good advice. Take care.

loxodrome June 18, 2006 11:07