hi Steve,

i'll consider your idea. although i'm skeptical that the sonic refinment of the room and system can be captured that way to a high enough degree to demonstrate anything helpful. but i've never done anything like that and rarely even watch Youtube myself, so maybe i'm not giving it it's due.

on the other hand; my Son did capture some 4K video off of Youtube we played on my Sony 4K projector.....which had promise.

my friend who did the 2 Youtube videos of my room might be here this weekend. maybe we can do it then. and i did just get a Nikon D600 which potentially can do reasonably high quality 1080P video but i'm not really set up for any quality sound recording with it.

i appreciate the interest in the room.

mikelavigne January 04, 2013 13:59

Greetings from the United Kingdom.

I notice on You Tube there are a couple of clips of your system. It would be wonderful if we could have a video of a complete track uploaded to You Tube so enthusiasts all around the world could get a flavour of what you have created.

Regards

Steve

cyclopse January 03, 2013 20:42

David,

interesting you bring up the Avalon Ascents. When i first met Winston Ma (prominent NW local audiophile and high end audio icon), he had Avalon Ascents in his wonderful room and it sounded great. later he switched to a few other speakers but ended up with the big Avalon Sentinels. i have not heard it for 4-5 years now, but i preferred those Ascent's to any of his other speakers including the Sentinals. so i can understand what you liked about them.

i would not know that they 'aren't any good anymore'.....they were pretty special sounding to my ears in Winston's room.....over 10 years ago.

enjoy the music!

mikelavigne December 27, 2012 01:15

correction- mental block, but i heard (in a great room/system) the Avalon Ascents - the top model at the time with huge external potted crossovers-
and listened to an LP of Charlie Byrd playing tunes on a classical guitar.
i was totally enthralled, and the dealer claimed the speakers were brand new and hadn't been broken in yet. Astonishingly beautiful sound nonetheless.
nowadays those speakers aren't "any good anymore", etc. etc.
oh well, what the H_ll, right, Mike? i am happy you are grooving along and
have a big smile on your face, plus you have a nice family as the ultimate accessory (!) to the stereo.
i have no family but i get BY with some JIVE as well as a little Beethoven NUMBER FIVE...
(in SACD of course...).

french_fries December 26, 2012 05:05

David; good morning (or good afternoon in Florida) to you!

down at the bottom of the hill from my home, about 5-7 minutes away, is a jazz club where there is live (mostly acoustic) music every night. 2-3 times a month i go to dinner there and listen for awhile, then come home and listen in my room. however great sounding i may think my system might be, it will never get 100% of the whole picture of live music. period. for certain aspects of the sound it does not really get close.

OTOH i many times prefer my system's sound to the sound of live music, it simply sounds better to my ears. i have no agenda to get anyone to agree with me....but that is my perspective. i do think my system, with the right recording, can sound 'like live' but don't claim it is the same.

so don't worry; i will never claim to have captured the complete picture of live music in my room. as far as orchestral; i don't listen to enough live orchestral music to really put forth an intellegent claim as to how close my system comes. i do particularly enjoy full scale orchestral music on my system now, and likley 50-60% of my listening is to large scale classical. it is so powerful sounding, and the system can capture macrodynamics very effortlessly.

i do have 30+ 15ips 1/4" classical master dubs which are very very good, but so are my thousands of classical Lps and digital recordings. the enjoyment of this music is a big part of the hobby to me, and how my system can now make these sound alive is one of the huge payoffs of all my system development.

as far as stopping in my pursuit of ultimate music reproduction; i would not use the word 'stop', to me it's more that i'm where i want to be. and it's now time for me to concentrate on my retirement and not commit any more assets to the hobby.

i cannot predict the future. if i were to hear something that took things further who knows what i might do. but i have no thoughts to any future system changes. i do look forward to focusing more on new music acquisitions, which i've been pulled away from recently by system changes and budget limitations.

enjoy the music on your wonderful system. don't worry about what others say. best wishes for a Happy Holidays and properous New Year!

mikelavigne December 25, 2012 19:03

Part of me wishes to see if you will finally settle down and not make any further "improvements" to this system, while the other (the "dark side") anticipates that you will learn of/hear a new tweak or component that will dramatically improve
this set-up still further. While i greatly admire the system as well as the way you have done the "matching" of the various parts so well, i wonder how much resolution is needed to hear Sinatra's voice any better, or a Stradivarius violin's tone quality, Ella singing Gershwin, etc.
As for Beethoven #5 (or #9 for that matter), can you say that your system
(or anyone's) can even come "close" to a live performance? If you can honestly say "YES", then that's great, i am really happy to know that. But...OTOH, has anyone
really been able to mic an orchestra well enough, transfer the true sound to tape (or whatever), and put it on an LP or CD (i don't suppose the Tape Project has a copy of Beethoven symphonies for sale?), and make the claim that they have finally done it, you will get to hear this music as if it was "Live"? i will even put up with a bit of hiss, or some other very low-level background noise. I just want to know if you can trick the human ear/brain into thinking you are hearing the real thing, or....not.
Technology has come a long way, and so has the aesthetic level of this hobby (in spite of the obvious objections to cost factors). i have heard the Wilson WAMMS, the ALEXANDRIAS, AVALON Eclipse's, MBL Radiostrahlers, B&W Nautilus snails, B&W 800 Matrix, Magnapan 20.1's, Sonus Fabers, and Von Schweikert VR-9's, and many other systems/speakers. nothing quite as good as your room and equipment together in one place, but some pretty heavy hitters nonetheless. Personally i would have been perfectly happy with MOST of the ultra-high end systems i auditioned, but you seem to have a difficult time reaching the point where you just don't care anymore.
so again, i hope you can STOP and take some time off from wanting to improve
ANYTHING. BUT IF YOU CAN'T, maybe you could just let us know why.
P.S.- Happy Holidays from sunny FLORIDA and stay warm everybody...!

french_fries December 25, 2012 18:01

Greg,

thanks. my system and my own knowledge has grown from lots of feedback (not all of it initially accepted by me positively) over the years, it's an important part of the hobby. i appreciate the support and encouragement from many too. i try not to take critique or negativity personally and remember this is suppose to be about music and fun and a hobby and not life and death.

i'm enjoying the music more, and thinking about my system less, than i ever have. last night i particularly enjoyed my wife, son, daughter and son-in-law listening with me. it was fantastic. they love jazz and blues and we just rocked the night away. it was the best.

and i totally agree with what you are saying, spending time putting energy into negativity is a complete waste.

cheers!

mikelavigne December 25, 2012 17:21

Bill,

thankyou and all the best Holidays to you and your family.

happy listening!

mikelavigne December 25, 2012 16:52

Mike I followed your system development. I have not read one substantive critque, If there was one. you would address it. As they say in the 'hood,"Don't hate,participate.

gregadd December 25, 2012 14:20

Mike, enjoy your holiday and may Santa bless you with more recordings!

whart December 23, 2012 21:12

Marc,

my wife is 'hopeing' i'm nearing the end of my system development. i think i'm there. reality? for that we need a crystal ball. stay tuned.

one thing for sure is that the higher the resolution of the system the more small things matter. it is hard when what you are hearing is already beyond previous references to keep pushing for better. when does one stop? not sure i have the answer right now; but ask me in a year or so.

i am very happy with my choice of high end audio and music as my hobby to invest my 'funny money' in as it compliments my carreer and life stlye. i can enjoy it daily and i'm at home doing it. it brings me pleasure, makes me feel good, my wife and family are comfortable with it.

Happy Holidays to you and yours!

mikelavigne December 22, 2012 17:16

Geoff,

it was a really fun listening session, and thanks for all the kind words about the system. glad you enjoyed it.

it had the same effect on me of having gone to a live musical event and feeling satisfied and feeling good. that is the way we'd all like it to be. (not saying that it sounds just like live).

i had not really had much chance to listen since the laser adjustments on Monday night as that went till 10pm and then Tuesday night i trimed our Christmas Tree. so i was experiencing the full effect too of the changes along with you and everything was in really in sync.

i look forward to our next session down the road.

mikelavigne December 22, 2012 16:51

Mike, your journey sure looks long and winding, but totally fruitful. I often used to take with a grain of salt audiophiles who commented on small changes in a system leading to significant improvements. Well, my new Zu Definitions 4 spkrs are so transparent to the preceeding audio chain, that even small changes in toe in and support of components can take the sound in wildly varying directions. Luckily I'm getting a handle, and in my own way really reaching a Nirvana like state enjoying my music.
It's not helping the OCD side of my nature however. Your family must be celebrating you pretty much arriving at an end point of sorts, but probably seeing even less of you now that you're spending more and more time enjoying it.
I've spent a big proportion of my income on my evolving system over 20 years (maybe half of my disposable income), but I shudder to think how I could have spent it alternatively leading to frustration eg performance motoring in traffic jams and speed traps all day, or tearing my hair out following my underperforming soccer team all over Europe. Being absorbed in the moment with a system firing on all cylinders is a hell of a hobby and therapy all mixed into one.
Hope you don't object to my metaphysical tone, ha ha. Happy Xmas and New Year to you. And everyone else.

spiritofmusic December 21, 2012 04:06

Mike had me over tonight for a fantastic evening of absolutely stellar listening. I'd heard Mike's system about 2 years ago, with the MM3's and a host of other equipment, and was blown away at the time.

This current system is truly over-the-top. The resolution, bandwidth, integration, and harmony of the whole system is simply wonderful, and sounds like exceptional audio ought to....musical, and emotionally engaging. The MM7's are effortless in their presentation, and have a dynamic envelope that just sucks a person in and then blows you back.

After 3 hours, I had the same kind of feeling I have right after listening to really, really good live music. And that's a sign of good audio.

Thanks again Mike! I can't wait until the next time!
Geoff

geoff727 December 20, 2012 08:29

Mike had me over tonight for a fantastic evening of absolutely stellar listening. I'd heard Mike's system about 2 years ago, with the MM3's and a host of other equipment, and was blown away at the time.

This current system is truly over-the-top. The resolution, bandwidth, integration, and harmony of the whole system is simply wonderful, and sounds like exceptional audio ought to....musical, and emotionally engaging. The MM7's are effortless in their presentation, and have a dynamic envelope that just sucks a person in and then blows you back.

After 3 hours, I had the same kind of feeling I have right after listening to really, really good live music. And that's a sign of good audio.

Thanks again Mike! I can't wait until the next time!
Geoff

geoff727 December 20, 2012 08:26

Peter,

thanks. good setup is good. great setup is better. congrats on your setup with Jim Smith.

since i wrote that post above i've done more listening and the degree of improvement is more profound than i had originally thought. i was not surprised that the laser adjustments made a difference, it was the degree of difference moving the main towers approx 1 inch, and simply aligning the bass towers made.

i must admit when my friend came over with his laser devices i just wanted to listen, which is all i'm doing these days. my friend insisted on taking the time to do the laser adjustments, so i deferred to him and we did it. and now the system is even better and i want to listen even more. i pretty screwed up right now in a good way.....you are right....all i want to do is listen.

btw; i had responded to your friend David's AudiogoN message to me about the proposed visit, but had not heard back from him. i just looked and saw that my response had been filtered by the moderators because i had included my email address....even though his communications had nothing to do with a sale. i did resend my response and then left David a voice message. you guys are most welcome to visit at the time he mentioned and i hope it happens. it would be lots of fun.

best regards,

mikelavigne December 20, 2012 00:51

Mike, Congratulations and I'm not surprised at the positive results from precise speaker alignment. Jim Smith came and voiced my system to my room and we followed a procedure similar to what you and your friend did.

The first thing Jim did was determine the best spot in the room for the listening seat. This was based on the location with the smoothest base response. From there we located the two speakers. The importance of doing this accurately and correctly for one's particular room can not be overstated.

The improvements you describe are very similar to how Jim Smith's work effected the sound of my system. You must be finding it difficult to pull yourself away from your music. Well done. You have a beautiful room and I can only image how good your sound is.

peterayer December 19, 2012 22:59

tonight my friend Andrew came over and laser aligned both towers of my MM7's. earlier he had done a quick alignment of the main towers only. i had simply set the bass towers outside the main towers when the bass towers arrived since i did not want to lose the alignment we had done on the main towers. however this left the bass towers behind the main towers by an inch or so.....since both towers are designed to be aligned on the same radius if you want complete integration at wave launch.

we started off establishing a center line and set up a line on paper attached to a tripod behind my sitting position along with a spot on the carpet below for measuring distance. next we measured the distance between the listening spot and the right bass tower and the center line and bass tower.....and then aligned that bass tower straight at the listening spot....and measured again. next we moved the right main tower to the same distance from the listening spot, and aligned it, then measured again. then we measured from the main tower to the center line. right side mostly done.

next we moved the left bass tower into the same distance both from the listening spot and the center line then aligned it. next we moved the left main tower the same distance from the listening spot and center line and aligned it.

all four towers were now equal distance from the listening spot and aligned to it; and each bass tower was the exact same distance from the center line and so were both main towers.

lastly we first leveled the right main tower with a laser tool, then placed tape on each wall with a mark; then leveled and adjusted the height of the left main tower so the laser rotation hit all the same marks exactly.

now both main towers were level and the exact same height. we did not mess with leveling the bass towers.

first a note that the speakers are still set to flat and no effort has been made for any sort of adjsutments. Kevin Malmgren is planning on coming late January to early March sometime to do final tweaking. by that time i should have approx 1000 hours on the speakers and amps.

results from laser alignment and laser leveling;

--more cohesive sound. not only bass but everything all up a down the frequency range. tighter bass, more connected to images in a real life way. more flow to the music, more energy and life. overall more focus and separation in the soundstage. vocals take on a greater front to back sense of a real person. each instrument seems more complete.

mostly not huge differences, but in some places quite profound. the presentation is a slight bit less 'big' and overall more real. more ease and less sense of being processed. amazing connection to the musical event.

i wonder with other 2 tower set-ups or separate subwoofer set-ups how much this issue has an effect. especially where the bass towers are behind the main towers. how can it not be significant?

mikelavigne December 18, 2012 06:53

You have a beautiful system. May I ask who you had design it and who your dealer is? Do you really think SACD is better than 44.1? What do you use as "reference"? In other words how do you judge your systems accuracy to the original recording?

thanks for the kind comments. the room was originally designed by Chris Huston of Rivers Audio. that was in 2004. in 2010 i made some changes; removing bass trapping in the front corners, closing up some of the ceiling bass trapping, and installing THX 458 Quietrock panels to solidify the bass.

yes; SACD is better than 44.1. but it's not that simple since not all SACD's are equal. some are 44.1 sourced. and not all digital players do top level SACD playback.

i use my 15ips 1/4" and 1/2" reel to reel tape as my reference thru my Studer and have for 5-6 years.

Just wondering how wide a soundstage you get with those big woofers right next to the MR arrays.

i get a huge, very wide soundstage.....limitless really....sometimes around almost behind me if it's on the recording. the bass towers are on the same plane with the main towers, so it does not seem to affect negatively the soundstage width that i can perceive.

I really admire your approach. When your choosing your cables,sources, amps speakers etc. how do you know which ones have as little of their own sound as possible? I means let's say your listening to 3 different amps. How do you know the one that has the least sound of its own? You really have an amazing system!

good question. here is the most objective way i've found to determine whether a system is colored. it has 3 parts. (1) how different does every recording sound? the more different things sound, the less 'color' or sameness you are hearing. (2) how do i feel when i listen? does the music relax me, does it cause me to get involved? does it get my attention? do i want to keep listening? (3) i do have 30-40 reference tracks i've used for 10+ years which tell me where i'm at. between these 3 things over some time i am confident to make good decisions. sometimes there are large differences between products. other times little or no difference. the fact that you never know what you will find gives me confidence in my approach.

as far as whether a system sounds real; 'real' is what our ears are use to. reproduced music aspires to sound real. each of us humans are trained to recognize reality. i trust my ears to tell me how real it sounds.

mikelavigne December 17, 2012 22:32

hey Jake,

great to hear from you. the monoblocks are awesome, really no other way to put it. they do things that are so nuanced and subtle even when the music is ultradynamic.....so easily. absolutely natural and harmonically complex. the mid range is tube like and everything is so vivid and life like. my own holodeck.

i love the Reed tonearms, and thought they (2 '2P's) were subperb on my Beat. i've not personally used a 12" Reed in my system, so i cannot compare it specifically to the Durand Talea 1 or 2. my opinion is that the Talea is a significant step up in life and detail over the Reed's to my ears. i had the Reed 2P mounted on the Beat along side the Talea 2 both with A90's for 9 months so i have a pretty fair idea of how they compare. understand we are taking degrees of good here.....nothing wrong with the Reed's in their own right.

the Durand Telos is a whole different league beyond the Talea 2 (and everything else too for that matter).

just my 2 cents, YMMV, and all that stuff.

email me your phone number and i'm happy to get into more detail about it.

as far as digital i'm so happy with the Playback Designs MPS-5 for not only digital discs but i'm mostly using the MPS-5 as a server dac and listening to dsd over USB. even though i have 4000 CD's and SACD's it's rare to play a disc.

i compare the digital to my vinyl and tape every day and never feel it's anything but natural and easy to listen to. nothing clinical or whitewashed about it. it's cut from the same cloth as the analog but not to the goodness level of those. i'm very happy.

in the interests of full disclosure i've gone away from paying attention to other digital dacs and players. i'm just happy. dsd and 2xdsd as well as all the PCM formats sound superb.

at shows when i walk around and listen to other digital i'm always relieved to listen to the Playback's again after other digital. but honestly i don't really pay much attention to other digital. likely there are other good ones too.

best regards and Happy Holidays to you,

mikelavigne December 17, 2012 15:00

I really admire your approach. When your choosing your cables,sources, amps speakers etc. how do you know which ones have as little of their own sound as possible? I means let's say your listening to 3 different amps. How do you know the one that has the least sound of its own? You really have an amazing system!

THX,

Panonica

panonica December 16, 2012 15:39

Hi Again,

Just wondering how wide a soundstage you get with those big woofers right next to the MR arrays.

THX,

Panonica

panonica December 16, 2012 15:31

Hi Mike,

You have a beautiful system. May I ask who you had design it and who your dealer is? Do you really think SACD is better than 44.1? What do you use as "reference"? In other words how do you judge your systems accuracy to the original recording?

THX,

Panonica

panonica December 16, 2012 14:00

Evening Mike,
Like always it seems great things are always evolving at the "barn"!

I am most curious as to how you have found the new monoblocks for the last three months I have them on short list for my Focal stella utopias...

As for the durand tonearms i am currently using a 10.5 and 12" Reed which is quite easy to set up and holds it;s mark but i have heard such stellar reviews on the durands that i would like your opinion for them on my Steve Dobbins "beat" tt please...
Lastly my Esoteric digital [po1.do1.gorb clock etc] are champs at resolving minute ambient information with great resolve but seems to leave the music without a tonal vibrancy due to it's analitical preferences leaving behind a chalky whitening of the textures which i find fatiguing, any recomondations?

Thanks as always and a healthy and happy new years and a safe family Christmas to you and yours!!

Azjake

azjake December 16, 2012 08:43

Hi Mike, yes, looking at your room its not hard to imagine your dilemma. I've missed most of my teams games in recent times LOL

Thanks for the kind comment, you've also nailed it. It is all about the music and my system is plenty musical for my tastes.

All the best
Dan

defride December 13, 2012 20:07