Defride,

thanks for the kind comments.

funny you should mention 'just one more tune'. since i've had these amps and speakers most/all of my other 'free-time' activities have mostly ceased and i just want to listen. it's hard to stop listening to do anything else. i have not watched football (American style that is) lately at all. i'm just loving it.

'just one more tune' sums it up nicely.

btw, nice Kharma-EMM system you have there. bet it makes great music.

mikelavigne December 13, 2012 15:54

Hadn't seen the big changes made this year. All out assault, yes, that sums it up!

Heard those 458s in a more modest system and that was mighty impressive. Expect you're finding it difficult to resist the temptation for 'just one more tune' these days...

defride December 13, 2012 11:12

The Westwick is used in many recording studios (although with all the "hot mastering" making so many modern recordings flat, lifeless and just plain unlistenable, maybe this is not such a compliment LOL!). I don't have the facility to have a permanent installation away from the system, but hard wired into my dedicated spur it sure looks earthquake proof (actually not an issue in the UK!) as a final power solution. At present a diminutive 40lb 4kVA $750 unit, not even audiophile grade, handilly outperforms my prev $7000 Burmester 948 conditioner.
To put power into perspective, in the UK our line voltage is (meant to be ) 230V. My belief is that swings +/- 5% puts tremendous demands on audio components, esp. power amps. The Burmester regularly showed fluctuations, moment to moment, of +/- 20%!
Placing the Burmester after the installation of the balanced transformer showed fluctuations no greater than +/- 1.5%. Nuff said.

spiritofmusic December 12, 2012 20:01

hi Marc,

there is always a way to ground electronic gear assuming it's chassis is grounded; however you may need to consult with the manufacturer.

as far as the 'dark arts' of magical tweaks my mind is open, but not so much my checkbook. i'll try some easy to use tweaks that are not expensive. i'm not going to get into particular one's; but i have used some slightly crazy one's and had percieved positive effects. however; not enough to tout them. i have no interest in any blind testing of them so let's say they are 'guilty pleasures' which are at least for entertainment value.

my experience is that there are many counter-intuative things that make positive differences and if you are not open minded and open-eard then how can you learn? yet, a fool and his money are soon parted. so common sense and humility are what i try to use.

for something like the Troy at it's stratospheric price, it will be listen first and then spend.....for sure. not a casual investment.

i agree with you that an 8kva Isolation Transformer would be a benefit. just make sure that there is no excess mechanical noise from it (hum) and that it does not limit dynamics. not all isolation transformers are created equal. i don't know the Westwick, it could be wonderful.

mikelavigne December 11, 2012 13:40

Hmm Mike, budget blown is a concept I'm well aware of having shelled out a tidy sum on upgraded tt/arm/speakers/stand.
I can quite understand how you'd need to be fully convinced to go down another uber expensive tweaking path.
One thing re the Troy grounding system I don't get is what to do if your components dont have grounding posts. Anyhow $12000+ sure is a big consuderation.
Btw, what is your opinion on the plethora of expensive "enviromental" tweaks out there eg Shakti Stones/Blackbodies/QOL Completion Device etc etc? They never seem to divulge their modus operandi, seem to be very overpriced, and very system dependent. One could easily pay the cost of a total component series overhaul in going down this path.
My main dilemma in having emptied the bank account, but still tempting to refine my system (trans Fi direct rim drive tt/linear tracking arm/EMM Labs CDSA/Hovland HP200& Radia amps/ZU Definitions 4 spkrs) further, is to investigate all tube amps (my spkrs are 100dB eff with built in powered subs) with SET 845 or OTL, upgrade my cart/phono stage, or go for further system wide upgrades (consistent cabling/power cords/more robust 8kVA balanced power transformer). On the last note I'm really tempted by a pro audio application Westwick Audio 8kVA isolation transformer, 200lb in weight, bullet proof overkill and I'm sure the best upgrade I'll ever make.

spiritofmusic December 11, 2012 08:43

if someone wants to drag some Tripoint Troy grounding gear over here i'm game. i'm not interested in their power conditioners, but am open to the grounding approach.

truth be told i'd considered it myself based on what i've read, but the budget is quite blown for awhile and Miguel is pretty proud of them. the top of line boxes and cables are astonishingly expensive for their intended use. not to say that they may not be worth it in a system liike mine where all other bases are very covered.

mikelavigne December 11, 2012 00:41

Power is uber important IMO, and it looks for all intent and purposes that Mike has chosen a SOTA option. You can spend more on single box solutions (I have). The burning question is what works best. I was steered away from the isolation transformer route for various reasons, some of which I am sure are myth. If I had known about the Equitech option, I might have gone with that instead. One of the most interesting and impactful areas for power isolation and conditioning is digital. This is an excerpt from the Equitech 10WQ review in 6Moons:

"Although I am a committed vinylphile, balanced power offers solutions for the digital side as well. While hum is often the noise indicator for analogue sources, it’s a little different for digital with the inherent noise from its power supplies, HF pulses and jitter. Jitter is distortion caused by timing and deviation issues in the high-frequency digital signal stream. Martin adds that "digital jitter is caused in part by high-frequency electrical interference approximating the bit stream rate of the digital signal." Specifically he compares digital jitter to intermodulation distortion in the analog realm where each piece of digital equipment cumulatively adds to the jitter problem.

The claimed improvement from balanced power is startling. Martin claims that the Equi=Tech system reduces average jitter by up to 50% and peak jitter by up to 66%, with the only variable being the change from standard to balanced power. The high-frequency noise reduction claims are equally as dramatic. "... nulling low-frequency harmonic current in essence 'knocks the legs out from under' the high-frequency harmonics in the AC system. Everything collapses." Bold claims to be sure and I have no way to prove or disprove them but Martin cites tests in both audio and technical environments. Oak Ridge National Laboratory was having significant problems with an electron microscope blurring the images of silicon atoms. The cause was tracked to minor timing errors in their digital data stream. The change to balanced power reduced jitter and cleared up the images."

The Oak Ridge reference is interesting but anecdotal. Nordost has co-developed software that measures changes in jitter following system changes such switching out cables:

(http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html)

That software could obviously be used to quantify things. My conditioner was used recently in a preliminary study on MRI image quality with positive results.

Mike, you stated:

stand alone power conditioning boxes are like toys in comparison. i respect that stand alone power conditioners can improve things in systems, and not everyone can logistically install a whole system isolation transformer. but many times stand alone power conditioners can end up being trade-offs reducing dynamics while lowering noise particularly on amplifiers since they can't store enough energy.

Given that the nature of this hobby seems to be additive, there is only one way to find out if that statement is true. I heard a demo of the Tripoint products after hours at Axpona last year, and it was impressive. Mike, it might worth checking out the Troy grounding box. I plan to. I believe a phile in your neck of the woods has one now and his mind is blown. As a disclaimer, I have no affiliation with Tripoint...

agear December 10, 2012 19:05

Hi mike
Wow ,that 's simply magnifique !!!!,......must be a major boost in QOL index....( quality of life) even if it's just few hours every day......you must be in pure sonic Happiness
Regards from your dim and distant past....vsa vr9se/ vr 7se days
Sam

asks40 December 09, 2012 21:40

Given the scale of this system and multiple components,the approach taken by mike makes the most sense by far. For smaller and less ambitious systems a one box conditioner that provides balanced AC power is very worthwhile and cost effective
Regards.

charles1dad December 09, 2012 19:42

Sounds like you took the optimal approach. The PS Audio regenerators run at a few grand a box, and for your system you would need quite a few.

edorr December 09, 2012 18:23

thanks Metralla.

yes; here is a couple of pictures of the Equi=tech outside my room.

Equi=tech 10 WQ Wall Panel System

Equi=tech outside my room

the Equi=tech provides whole system power isolation and regeneration. it lowers noise, increases dynamics and improves the power supply linearity of all electronics in your system. this power grid is completely separate from my 'dirty' panel for my barn which runs lights, HVAC and other 'non-audio' needs.

stand alone power conditioning boxes are like toys in comparison. i respect that stand alone power conditioners can improve things in systems, and not everyone can logistically install a whole system isolation transformer. but many times stand alone power conditioners can end up being trade-offs reducing dynamics while lowering noise particularly on amplifiers since they can't store enough energy. i have no particular experience with the PS Audio so i cannot say how it works exactly. the other thing is that if you have multiple stand alone power conditioners (and some are very expensive) it might not be that much more to install an Equi=tech and be at an 'end point' and forget about those separate boxes forever. an Equi-tech wall panel system, depending on which one you get, will run you $10k-$15k installed all in. when you do it every piece of gear you own gets an upgrade. it is a very cost effective way to get a whole system improvement. you just need a qualified commercial electrician.

i also have 10 gauge Romex home runs to Furutech GTX-D Rhodium duplex outlets, with Oyaide WPC-Z outlet covers, for every component. for power cords i use 2 Evolution Acoustics (TRPC) triple run power cords for my dart 458 mono blocks, and 10 Absolute Fidelity (by Genesis Technology loudspeakers) power cords for all my other gear.

i take power grid management very seriously and the very best sounding systems i have heard use the Equi=tech.

mikelavigne December 09, 2012 15:05

Edorr writes:

Mike, I noticed you are not doing much with power

Not speaking for mikel, of course - but if you dig a little deeper, you will see the Equi=Tech panel.

http://www.equitech.com/

Regards,

metralla December 09, 2012 13:00

Mike, I noticed you are not doing much with power. Have you ever considered trying the ps audio p10 or p5 regenerators? These things worked miracles in my system.

edorr December 09, 2012 05:10

Just plain SWEET!

jcipale December 09, 2012 04:33

Mike,

I would love to come over and listen. Trouble is, I might not want to leave! I hardly ever leave the "Rock", as we refer to it, but a visit with you may entice me to travel a bit.

My entire system has changed for the better, over the last few years, so I leave an open invitation for you, as well.

Thanks, and regards,
Dan

islandmandan December 08, 2012 22:23

hi Dan,

thanks for the kind words.

it has been awhile, 6 years or so since you visited. yes; i did order those VR11's but they never did build them for me (long story over an adult beverage of your choice some time). loved owning those VR9SE's for sure. and actually i had a pair of dart stereo 108 amps with the VR9's.

if you can stand leaving your beautiful Whidbey Island, it's time to visit me again. i think you might like it.

mikelavigne December 08, 2012 00:37

Hi Mike,

I haven't seen you since around the time you still had your VR-9's, in other words, a very long time. You had me over for a listening session back then, something I haven't forgotten.

I can't even begin to fathom what your system sounds like now. You did have the Dartzeel pre and power amps, though.

I recall you were in the process of ordering VR-11's, though you obviously found something you like much better.

I'm glad for you you were able to get the new Dartzeel amps, and the upgrade on your speakers. I know most of your system has changed as well, so congratulations, and enjoy!

Best regards,
Dan Thomason
(Whidbey Island)

islandmandan December 08, 2012 00:29

Lloyd and Mark,

thanks. i do agree completely on the art aspect of both the MM7's and the particularly the dart 458's.

the MM7's, for such massive products, are so organic that it's hard to tell their size just looking at pictures. and from the side and rear they are so delicate looking. fit and finish are top notch. i've visited the designer Kevin Malmgren's place a few times; and he has some of his various art works (in various media) on display on his walls. the look of the MM7's is not an accident.

as for the darTZeel NHB-458's, i'm still awe struck every time i come into the room. i get a kick out of just walking up to them and switching them from standby to full on, or the reverse. the silky feel of the chassis and switch is so cool. a visual feast to be sure.

i feel so lucky to be able to live with these products. i will never take them for granted.

mikelavigne December 08, 2012 00:25

Wow, is your room getting smaller or is the equipment getting bigger? Thanks for sharing.

you are welcome.

good point about the impression of size of the room from the pictures. those twin towers are monsters. each 7 feet tall and 600-700 pounds each massive. i thought about standing next to them in one of the pictures to give a sense of scale....but i don't want to be in any pictures.

the room is 21 feet wide and 11 feet high. wider and taller than most rooms. but MM7's make the room seem snug, they even make the amps look small. however in-room, the room looks big and the amps look big and bold.

the one picture looking toward the rear of the room gives a better perspective on the size.

mikelavigne December 08, 2012 00:12

Chris,

thanks. the dart 458 side panels are etched tempered glass. the top panel of my dart stereo NHB-108 is also glass. the glass is used aesthetically to expose the beauty of the inner circuits. i've seen not only inside the top but i've seen underneath on the bottom of the dart amps. every surface of dart products are as perfectly finished as the outside.

the other reason glass is used is to minimize any circuit noise by allowing stuff to easily get out thru the glass. another point about darTZeel amps is that they are sealed; so no dust can get in.

the amps don't get hot to the touch, just warm. so plexiglass would be fine although it would not look as good as high quality tempered glass.

mikelavigne December 08, 2012 00:02

Sam, Bigpond, Knghifi, and Agear.....thank you for the kind words.

mikelavigne December 07, 2012 23:51

Mike...thanks for posting the new pics....Lloyd said it best...a work of art in every way. You've outdone yourself....ENJOY!

zephyr24069 December 07, 2012 09:07

Just when you thought it couldn't get any sweeter. Congrats....

agear December 07, 2012 02:08

Absolutely beautiful...a work of art in every way. Enjoy!

lloydelee21 December 06, 2012 23:42

Wow, is your room getting smaller or is the equipment getting bigger? Thanks for sharing.

brf December 06, 2012 16:30