Mike, Nice report. Yes, it is subjective and thanks for the qualifications. I'm not surprised that you did not hear anything as good as your system at home. I've only been to two shows and I did not hear anything that I liked as much as my own system. Different, certainly, but not more enjoyable for me. I find it very difficult or even impossible to asses the performance of any one component in an unfamiliar system, especially something like a cartridge.

If and when you have an opportunity to audition the Atlas in your own system, I'd be very interested in reading about your impressions. Is the Ortofon Anna now Durand's cartridge of choice in his arms?

peterayer June 10, 2012 01:15

Hi Mike, you may be interested to know I've sold my belt drive Michell Orbe/SME V, and replaced it with a direct rim drive Trans Fi Salvation tt w. Trans Fi T3Pro Terminator air bearing linear tracking arm. I'm trying to get to something of your NVS nirvana at a less exalted pricetag. I'm going to collect my thoughts and open a new A'gon thread since I believe this is a fantastic tt option.
My question to you is re the Soundsmith Straingauge cart and your lack of love for it. I'm trying to secure an audition in the UK, and reviews seem to be v.positive, commenting on great detail retrieval, neutrality and excellent tracking/resistance to surface noise. What are your experiences of it? regards.

spiritofmusic June 10, 2012 00:15

yikes...where is the dealer disclosure?

....mike, any chance that you might be suffering from a confirmation bias?

Cheers,
Alan

unoear June 09, 2012 23:28

(6-tie) Rockport-BAT electronics-Brinkman. #331 in the atrium. Brinkman tt, arm and cartridge. the room had issues but they were mostly in the bass; and so Snooky came thru fairly well. the combo of Rockport and BAT is not one i would have choosen, as both are a bit laid back in character, but i did enjoy it.

It was great meeting you for the first time while you were conducting this test.

mikelakers June 09, 2012 22:43

Sunday morning at the show Joel Durand removed the Telos tonarm and Anna cartridge from the NVS in the Blue Light Audio room since he had to bug out early. i had hung out in that room a good deal.....and played vinyl mostly when i was DJ'ing. one track i use at home and jtinn brought with him is 'Snooky' from the Pablo pressing of "Mostly Blues.....and Some Others", Count Basie and the Kansas City Septem. this has the Count with Eddie 'Lockjaw' Davis, Snooky Young, Freddie Green, Joe Pass, John Heard, and Roy McCurdy. i had played that cut 5 or 6 times over a couple of days in the Blue Light Audio room (and likely 50 times in my room at home on the same vinyl front end). it has some amazing cymbles with tons of detail, as well as a very dynamic muted horn and it is perfectly recorded. and since jtinn no longer had a need for his Lp that day and i had a few hours until i had to go to the airport, i decided to take it around to the rooms i had visited with tt's and play it. i especially had interest in how the Lyra Atlas and Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement might do as those were two cartridges that people had asked me about what i thought.

i did visit 11 rooms and play that cut. and it was an eye-openning experience. it's important to note that very little truth can be uncovered in an exercise such as this. it's simply one data point. and a heavily qualified data point at that. and it's also fair to say that i could have had a strong expectation bias....or not.

the ultra-detail on 'Snooky' did separate the men from the boys on this Sunday afternoon. some could do it, and others not so much. and $$$$'s did not entirely explain it.

before i get into my perceptions about how each room and system did with 'Snooky' i will acknowledge the obvious. beyond all the varibles of a show and the rooms, are the varibles and level of competent set-up of the turntables, and particularly synergy and compatablity of the tt, arm, cartridge, and phono stage....even the rack it sits on. rooms and systems are many times put together around who will pay for part of the expense, or who will offer to contribute gear......not what specific gear actually works best or what gear the set-up guy has most experience with.

i just don't want to cause undue negativity to any piece of gear based on my particular perceptions. OTOH i have played this cut in my system on a number of different turntables, arms, cartidges and thru different phono stages which were set up pretty good. and even thru my observations of the Durand tonearm development.....so i do have some sense of how things ought to be even with varible gear.

here we go;

(1) Blue Light Audio room. #418. Evolution Acoustics-darTZeel, NVS-Telos-Ortofon Anna. as set up by Joel Durand, this system (even with $2500 EA speakers) portrayed Snooky in all it's glory. no it's not fully my home system completely. but it gets the energy and full spacial rendering of the cymbals, you get the distinctive metallic shimmer, the precise rendering of all the tiny detail and complete decay. at one point in the cut, the Cymbals change from a hi-hat to a splash type and this room/system captures it completely. the muted horn is alive and vibrant. overall there is an immediacy and life to the music. it's alive. the speakers completely disappear and every molecule in the room is music.

(2) Lotus-Esoteric-SMc room--#323 in the Atrium. Joe Cohen's Ganada G2 speakers, Steve McCormack's VRE-1 preamp, and Esoteric amps. i think a Hansse tt, Durand Talea 2 arm, and Ortofon Windfield. this was the last room i visited with Snooky. and it was startling how much better it was than any of the other rooms other than the Blue Light Audio room. it's like my expections had lowered considerably, and then bam, here was the magic again. no; it did not quite reach the hights of the NVS-Telos-Anna. OTOH these speakers are 30x as expensive as the EA speakers. of course the tt-arm-cart is 1/5th the value of the NVS-Telos-Anna. it shows there are different paths to sonic bliss.

or maybe it's just that Joel Durand also set up this tuntable!

who knows?

anyway, while this system did not get quite as deep into the detail, or render the dynamic contrasts as clearly, or have quite the vivid immdeiacy in the muted horn, it did do all those things well and overall was very very good.

(3-tie) Soundsmith-#204. not sure the amps; the speakers were $3k retail. it was a VPI HRX tt, VPI 12" arm and Soundsmith Hyperion cactus needle cartridge. normally i don't care for Peter's rooms (OTOH i think Peter is super and a true asset to the vinyl community). he plays the music too loud and i have never warmed up to the Strain Gauge cartridges. but i'm sure the set-up in this case was super and the Hyperion is the real deal. there was a clear drop-off from #1 and #2 but this did capture the information for the most part.....although not the energy or note decay. but it was not just mush. i liked it.

(3-tie) Voce-Lindeman-Zesto #1011. vintage Luxman tt, Triplaner, Soundsmith Hyperion cactus needle cartridge. very similar to the Soundsmith room; maybe a little better as the speakers were higher level but not much. nice; it got the information. i liked the Zesto phono stage. the music had that ease and relaxed presentation.

(5) High Water Sound-Cessaro speakers-Thoress electronics. #243 in the Atrium. TW-Acustic tt and arm. Shilabe cartridge. i visited this room 3 times and stayed awhile. i always enjoy Jeff's room. he plays great music. overall it was a fine sounding room except there was just a slight bit of shoutyness from the horns. on Snooky it was good, but not great. most of the information, but not quite the full measure of the bloom and detail.

(6-tie) Silverline-Conrad Johnson-Kuzma #1018. Kuzma tt, Kuzma 4-point arm, Transfiguration Orpheus cartridge. this was pretty good and did get most of the information; but a clear level below the 2 Hyperion cartridges. good energy and flow.

(6-tie) Magico-Constellation-Brinkman-#203 in the Atrium. Brinkman tt, arm and cartridge. competent. nothing wrong. not quite the Orpheus in detail. overall i liked it.

(6-tie) Rockport-BAT electronics-Brinkman. #331 in the atrium. Brinkman tt, arm and cartridge. the room had issues but they were mostly in the bass; and so Snooky came thru fairly well. the combo of Rockport and BAT is not one i would have choosen, as both are a bit laid back in character, but i did enjoy it.

(9) Vandersteen-ARC-Basis #1004. Basis tt, Vector arm, Lyra Atlas. i liked the room and did visit it a couple other times and listen to other vinyl. it did sound good overall. i really do like the Vandersteen's and ARC gear. but on Snooky it was mush to a degree. and A.J. was out in the hall so you would assume the set-up was very good. yet; it did not have even the precision of the Soundsmith Hyperion cartridge....let alone anywhere close to the Durand-Ortofon's. if you never heard Snooky done right, i can see where you'd be enjoying it. but for me i was disappointed as i expected much more. i'm sure the Atlas is better than this.

(10) Von Schweikert-Sora Sound-George Warren. #529. George Warren tt-Morech arm, ZYX cartridge. this was ok, but could not reveal the detail.

(11) Scaena--VAC-ARC. #216. Kronos tt, Graham Phantom Supreme arm, Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge. i had high expectations for this system, the tonearm, and the cartridge. i had enjoyed the Scaena speakers before, the VAC electronics are always enjoyable to me, and i was anticipating hearing the Graham Supreme and the Goldfinger statement. i sat down right next to the Kronos turntable designer, who i assumed had set up the arm and cartridge. it was mostly a mess. everything. the bass was not right at all, the tt seemed to have speed issues, and Snooky was not happening. i'm going to assume that none of the parts were at fault, and wait until next time to assess the Phantom Supreme and Goldfinger Statement.

i had visited this room 3 different times and never heard it sound quite right.

ok; that is it. a caution; my comments pertain to the ability of these systems to play 'Snooky' at that particular time to my ears and nothing more.

mikelavigne June 09, 2012 16:01

Mike, I enjoy looking at your thread. I see, it's been a fruitful journey up to the peak of top performance in audio. As a side note, I am friends with Dr. Gladstone. I am writing to beg for your forgiveness for his outburst. Metaphorically speaking, he has climbed MT Everest and he is stuck at "29030 feet". Sometime he does make it down to Camp 4 but he refuses to came back to the village. PS: Is a shame that your not on this side of the country. I would love a visit.

zermatt June 09, 2012 11:02

Jacob,

you are a sh*t disturber aren't you? i can imagine the grin on your face as you posted that. i can tell you i won't show your post to my wife.

:-)

your room is basically the same size as mine for the Wilson XLF's and Thor's Hammers. i think we both have it about right.

i think the new speakers are exactly what my room needs to reach it's optimum. i think that if the room were much bigger i would not be able to achieve the physicality in the bass, and the immediacy and intimacy i want. the speakers will simply have more linearity and headroom than my present speakers. and i'll have more adjustability in the bass towers for exact performance, along with more choices for the main towers for soundstaging and tonality.

i guess we'll just have to wait for Kevin to build them and ship them to me to see how it goes.

mikelavigne June 07, 2012 00:10

When do you anticipate breaking ground to construct a new, larger room to accommodate better your new speaker system?

gladstone June 06, 2012 23:27

Thanks Mike. I really appreciate your helpfulness. Alex

al2 May 30, 2012 02:55

hi Alex,

thank you for your kind comments. and you are always welcome to ask any question or bring my attention to another thread.

i had already seen your thread and posted, and for whatever reason your post above here was delayed in being posted on this thread.

in any case, best wishes to find the cartridge that best fits your system and preferences. any of the ones you have mentioned would be very nice. i do strongly prefer the Anna of the ones i have heard.

best regards,

mikelavigne May 29, 2012 16:30

Hi Mike, this is Alex from Germany, music and audio lover.

Congratulations on your new speakers.

I read your systems post for years.
Thank you so much for sharing your great passion and knowledge with us!

Your system is fantastic, especially your room, analog and tape machines.

Dear Mike, sorry maybe this is the wrong place but I started a thread here:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1337907821&&&/Goldfinger-Statement-Lyra-Atlas-or-Ortof

I will be very thankful if you find the time to help with your broad experience.

All the best to you
Alex

al2 May 26, 2012 01:22

better,best, perfect to the right
worse, worst, intolerably awful to the left
good has enemies all around

uru975 May 18, 2012 16:42

I thought it was the "perfect is the enemy of the good": expressing the tendency to try for the impossible at the expense of the possible.

stanwal May 17, 2012 22:41

"better is the enemy of good.

gregadd May 17, 2012 20:45

once the MM7's are in house and have some hours on them, the designer, Kevin Malmgren, will visit and dial them into my room. Kevin already has the dimentions of my room and so will plot out a starting point for me to set them when they arrive.

there are two other local MM3 owners who Kevin will visit when he is here and dial theirs in too.

no speaker or any piece of gear is perfect. even the idea of perfect is not how one should think. OTOH things can be right, and finely designed and built to do a job exceedingly well.

audio nirvana? that would be a personal sense of satisfaction from the music media and system to express it. and in the last couple of years i feel i've been there....where i'm satisfied fully. not that something can't get my attention if it's clearly better....which is what the MM7's did when i was able to directly compare them to the MM3's. i didn't lust after the MM7's for some lack in the MM3's. i just decided to pay the price for a bit more of nirvana once i knew about it.

if tomorrow i changed my mind and kept the MM3's i know i could live with and be satisfied with them. i'm lucky to have the MM3's and appreciate the hell out of them.

mikelavigne May 17, 2012 00:21

I have staed eslwhere nothing made by man is perfect. Certainly at $200k there should be no compromises. I hope you have found audio nirvana.
Are you goiing to install them yourself? Or is a vist from the manufacturer eminent?

gregadd May 16, 2012 23:02

I seem to recall you were in hot pursuit of the VR 11. ANy comparison between that and the MM7?

6 years ago i owned and loved Von Schweikert VR9SE's. i had no thought to sell them. then a friend from HK made me an offer i could not refuse and i sold them. i had loved the VR11 when i heard them at CES; so i took that opportunity to order VR11's. this was in July 2006 or 2007.....and delivery was promised for 8-10 weeks later. then late that same month i was in San Diego on a business trip and visited Kevin Malmgren (designer of the VR9SE and VR11) who was finishing the final voicing of the MM3's. i loved what i heard, and decided to also order the MM3's.

to make a long story not as long; i finally recieved the MM3's 4 months later, and at that time Von Schweikert still had not even started the VR11's. the following June i finally cancelled my VR11 order (and they had not yet even been started). i'm not going to point fingers anywhere, i only report the facts.

i explain all that because i never really left the Von Schweikert speakers, they left me.

i see the VR11 as an awesome speaker but more an MM3 competitor than an MM7 competitor. i think the MM3's are mostly preferrable to my ears compared to my (now 8 year old) recollection of the VR11's. i prefer the Accuton ceramic midrange and ribbon tweeter to the VR11 or VR9SE mid and tweeter; and see the bottom end of both the MM3 and the VR's as a trade-off.

to my ears the MM7's go to another level at everything compared to any of those others. obviously; these are just my viewpoints....and until i live with the MM7's for awhile my impressions are very provisional.

all these speakers are Kevin's designs (part of the MM3's were not totally Kevin's), and the MM7 is his masterpiece.

mikelavigne May 16, 2012 21:11

I seem to recall you were in hot pursuit of the VR 11. ANy comparison between that and the MM7?

gregadd May 16, 2012 20:28

Greg,

back in March i was in Newport Beach at a business meeting and had the opportunity to visit Kevin Malmgren as he was completeing his design work on the new MM7 crossovers. i was able to hear them side by side with the MM3. you can read about that here and the subsequent posts.

the MM7's are due to arrive late August, so i just listed my MM3's for sale last evening.

the MM3's are no less awesome than they were before, there is now simply another step up.

mikelavigne May 16, 2012 20:10

The king is dead. Long live the king! The MM3 is for sale?

gregadd May 16, 2012 20:00

Jean-Fredrick, yes of course i remember you. and your visit as well as your ultimate plans to build a dedicated room once you were more settled in one place. are you building the room in France? or in Asia someplace?

in any case congrats on that finally happening.

i've not heard the Q7, but i like what i've read about it and it's much more amp friendly efficiency. congrats on those too.

my system is wired with #10 gauge Romex. so when i had the Equi=tech installed almost 2 years ago i did not change the wire in the walls as i would have had to rip out the walls to do it. my friend Bruce Brown did use JPS wire for all his in-wall wire.....which then forced him to actually solder all his outlets to his wire since it was so big. if i had it to do over again, i'm on the fence as to whether i would go with some sort of 'audiophile' wire for in wall. it could be better than the #10 Romex, but i'm very happy with what i hear.

as far as the Equi=tech 10QW wall panel system i am totally satisfied. in this country there is the issue of UL rating. there are no other high end panel systems that are rated. it sounds amazing to me. great build quality. it's not cheap but in the context of a room project it's not that bad. i'd contact Martin at Equi=tech and ask them how their panel meeets the codes of the country you are building in.

as far as dulpex outlets a year ago i switched from the Oyaide R-1's to the Furutech GTX-R and it made a big positive difference. the GTX-R uses pure copper contacts and then a stainless steel clamping system behind those copper contacts. this is much easier on the plating of your male plugs, and provides that perfect contact. other better plugs use an alloy for strength that simply is not as good as pure copper. also; the GTX-R is one solid chunk. if you drop it on a counter it just thuds. the R-1 sounds like it full of tiny lose pieces. this mechanical inertness gives you that really solid sound.

there are a few posts in this thread both about the Equi=tech (August-Septemebr 2010) and the Furutech GTX-R's (last spring as i recall) that get into more detail.

i'll look forward to some info on your room project as you go along. enjoy the process. and if you ever get a chance to hear the new Evolution MM7's i'd love to get your feedback on those too. maybe you can visit again here once i have them.

best regards,

mikelavigne May 10, 2012 13:55

Hi Mike,
Not sure if you remember me, I visited you from taiwan 5 years back. I am also going now through the process of building a dedicated room, fully treated. I will change at the same time my MM3 for a pair of Magico Q7 (actually, keeping the MM3 for a second system in a second home).
I have a small technical question: Which type of electrical wires did you use between your equi=tech panel and the power sockets? are you still using the Oyade sockets? would you still consider the equi=tech as the best power system (against competitive solutions like Torus)
thanks

stereotaipei May 10, 2012 09:07

for those interested; here is a link to a thread on vinyl compared to tape related to my above posts.

mikelavigne May 01, 2012 22:53

thank you Francisco, for the explanation.

i look forward to trying it in my system with amps without the BNC/50ohm circuit.

mikelavigne April 30, 2012 21:12

Mike,

It's nice to read that some audiophiles such as yourself are at the very bleeding edge of the art. I truly appreciate your willingness to share your experiences with the rest of us. I have learned much from the exchanges I've had on these forums and I'm sure I will continue to do so.

I'll stay tuned indeed.

peterayer April 30, 2012 02:32