hi, there, i guess i missed saying what i meant as far as the MM7's- don't you already have a HUGE pair of speakers relative to your room's dimensions?

the MM3's do a great job in my room, but my room is very large and well damped. it's 21' x 29' x 11'. the whole ceiling is a bass trap. so it can handle plenty of sound pressure. however, it's not the size of the speakers that is important; it's the fact that more driver surface allows for less distortion, and adding 4 woofers per side improves mid bass dynamics and coherence, and a better crossover reduced distortion. really no different than the VR9SE compared to the VR11SE in many ways.

my room was designed for a speaker like the MM7's to be able to breathe.

i mixed that point up with an observation about amps that put out a lot of watts (gracefully). again, i have no qualms about the dart monoblocks per se, but they cost a disproportional amount of money compared to other manufacturer's "fananical-best" amps and i just have to wonder if that issue hasn't crossed your mind as well. A Lot.

without getting into particular alternative amps; i've heard amps from all those manufacturers you mention and many others; i prefer my DarTZeel stereo 108 to any of them. and the 458 is better in important ways than the 108 to my ears. i'll put it another way. there is not another amp i would choose than the 108 except for the 458. if i had less efficient speakers then other amps might have advantages over the 108, but i don't have that problem.

If you know where i can get some good tapes (other than the limited choices from the tape project) i would certainly be interested. i had a reel to reel when you were still in diapers and i started out dubbing concerts over my old man's blaupunkt hi-fi radio. those tapes didn't sound half bad all things considered. i have a better one now of course... p.s.- i hope you still have a good sense of humor- regards, D.

email me [email protected] and we can discuss underground tape titles. it's not a subject for a public forum.

i'm almost 61 years old and had a Wollensak Reel to Reel tape deck in High School in 1966 and dubbed concerts off the radio too. 'me in diapers'......that would mean you were using tape decks in 1952. from our past phone conversations you seemed like a young guy. :-)

hummmmm.

mikelavigne August 06, 2012 16:06

Hey FF,

While I was there I was showed a copy of the "Famous Blue Raincoat" tape...nice, anybody know where you can get one?

FF, I looked up the information regarding your Von Schweikert VR speakers. These appear to be really super solutions; I can see why you are so happy with their performance. Please tell us more about your experience with these speakers room matching capabilities.

Thanks!

unoear August 06, 2012 11:15

hi, there, i guess i missed saying what i meant as far as the MM7's- don't you already have a HUGE pair of speakers relative to your room's dimensions?
i mixed that point up with an observation about amps that put out a lot of watts (gracefully). again, i have no qualms about the dart monoblocks per se, but they cost a disproportional amount of money compared to other manufacturer's "fananical-best" amps and i just have to wonder if that issue hasn't crossed your mind as well. A Lot.
If you know where i can get some good tapes (other than the limited choices from the tape project) i would certainly be interested. i had a reel to reel when you were still in diapers and i started out dubbing concerts over my old man's blaupunkt hi-fi radio. those tapes didn't sound half bad all things considered. i have a better one now of course... p.s.- i hope you still have a good sense of humor- regards, D.

french_fries August 06, 2012 04:33

Michael, since you once owned a pair of Von Schweikert VR-9's (and since i have a pair as well) i thought you might like to know the Mk.II version is now available with a better midrange driver, a stiffer cabinet, upgraded crossovers, and a more powerful subwoofer amplifier. the cost of these modifications is a fairly humble $12K ($8K without the new amplifiers). since this speaker is adjustable to almost any room (of reasonable size) you place it in, my only nit to pick is the cabinet finish which is not on par with Wilson or Rockport, etc. and could be more mirror-like.

hi French Fries,

long time no talk, i hope all is well with you. as you know, i'm a VR9SE fan, and did not intentionally leave the Von Schweikert family. it left me (long story). that said i love my Evolutions. i heard about the MkII version of the VR9SE and would expect it to be a good step up, and at $12k ought to be cost effective for VR9SE owners. obviously the adjustability of the VR9SE is a big positive feature, i sure like it on my Evolutions.

i have to wonder how much air you're going to need to push with the enormous MM7's as well as the Dartzeel mono blocks that i would want to compare to some top-of-the-line amplifiers costing a lot less. would the newest offerings from Boulder, Pass, Rowland (725's), etc. NOT sound as good, and perhaps even better than the Dart's? if not, then FINE i could not be more enthusiastic if they are truly game-changers.

first; the MM7's are more efficient and an easier amplifier load than the MM3 (96db, 7 ohm for the MM7 verses 93db, 6 ohm for the MM3), so speaker load is not an issue. i did have the NHB-458 in my system for a month a couple of years ago right along side my Stereo dart NHB-108 so i do know what it brings to the table. and that would be an unique overall refinement and level of ease and energy which must be heard to be appreciated. specifically on the astonishing ability to mimick real-life immediacey, snap and articulation while staying natural and harmonically complete it is wholey unique in my experience. amplifier choice is personal, i'm not here to criticize anyone else's choice.

my speakers already reach down to 13 Hz and have ribbon super tweeters
front and rear just in case i can hear anything above 15KHz (i can't). the carbon-fiber midrange unit, while not the best in its class anymore, has been favorably compared to electrostatic speakers. the crossovers are supposedly as good as money can buy.
the cabinet (350lbs) is not quite as inert as it (now) could be, but certainly has been doing a pretty convincing job (by your own evaluations).
could a Rockport, Magico, Wilson XLF, or ??? be EVEN more transparent than the Evolution speakers? was Einstein the smartest scientist who ever lived? Will the "best man" win the race for the seat in the Oval Office?

the VR9SE is one of my favorite speakers, as you know. i tried to buy VR11SE's too.

as far as those others, each one is different in my mind, probably i prefer the Rockport overall to the other 2, but prefer the Evolutions to any of them. but preference is different than objective 'best'. i'm not really interested in trying to talk someone into why anything is best. i can only say why i like or prefer something. having a favorite is a reasonable thing. when people try to prove things i am switching the channel.

my head starts to spin uncontrollably sometimes when i read about all this equipment Equipment EQUIPMENT! IF we could only obtain master tapes of L.Bernstein conducting the NYPO or G.Szell with the Cleveland, it might be worth
all this trouble and trial. but we lack PURE signals with which to feed these Krazy Komponents of ours, and thereby often mimic the proverbial dog chasing his own tail.
SO in conclusion, i might go ahead and upgrade my speakers, but you know, honestly i can already say that the difference in quality between one recording and another is so markedly different (huge) that my gear is ALREADY light years ahead of the transparency of the software.
So who owns those master tapes i mentioned (Sony?) Isn't it about time we get our hands on them....? that could possibly kickstart a whole new industry.
respectfully, D.

not sure if you've been paying attention to my Tape decks and reel to reel tapes, but i've quite heavily invested in those in the last 5 years. currently i have 3 master recorders (2 Studers and an Ampex) and approx 125 15ips 1/4" and 1/2" master dubs (about 250 reels). amazing sound. so i quite agree that it all starts with the best sources, and the best possible software.

and in the last 5 years a whole Reel to Reel tape culture and business for audiophiles has sprung up. if you like i can point you to some resources to get going with that.

best regards,

mikelavigne August 05, 2012 18:46

Michael, since you once owned a pair of Von Schweikert VR-9's (and since i have a pair as well) i thought you might like to know the Mk.II version is now available with a better midrange driver, a stiffer cabinet, upgraded crossovers, and a more powerful subwoofer amplifier. the cost of these modifications is a fairly humble $12K ($8K without the new amplifiers). since this speaker is adjustable to almost any room (of reasonable size) you place it in, my only nit to pick is the cabinet finish which is not on par with Wilson or Rockport, etc. and could be more mirror-like.
i have to wonder how much air you're going to need to push with the enormous MM7's as well as the Dartzeel mono blocks that i would want to compare to some top-of-the-line amplifiers costing a lot less. would the newest offerings from Boulder, Pass, Rowland (725's), etc. NOT sound as good, and perhaps even better than the Dart's? if not, then FINE i could not be more enthusiastic if they are truly game-changers. Maybe...
my speakers already reach down to 13 Hz and have ribbon super tweeters
front and rear just in case i can hear anything above 15KHz (i can't). the carbon-fiber midrange unit, while not the best in its class anymore, has been favorably compared to electrostatic speakers. the crossovers are supposedly as good as money can buy.
the cabinet (350lbs) is not quite as inert as it (now) could be, but certainly has been doing a pretty convincing job (by your own evaluations).
could a Rockport, Magico, Wilson XLF, or ??? be EVEN more transparent than the Evolution speakers? was Einstein the smartest scientist who ever lived? Will the "best man" win the race for the seat in the Oval Office?
my head starts to spin uncontrollably sometimes when i read about all this equipment Equipment EQUIPMENT! IF we could only obtain master tapes of L.Bernstein conducting the NYPO or G.Szell with the Cleveland, it might be worth
all this trouble and trial. but we lack PURE signals with which to feed these Krazy Komponents of ours, and thereby often mimic the proverbial dog chasing his own tail.
SO in conclusion, i might go ahead and upgrade my speakers, but you know, honestly i can already say that the difference in quality between one recording and another is so markedly different (huge) that my gear is ALREADY light years ahead of the transparency of the software.
So who owns those master tapes i mentioned (Sony?) Isn't it about time we get our hands on them....? that could possibly kickstart a whole new industry.
respectfully, D.

french_fries August 05, 2012 16:16

Actually, I'm getting pretty close to my end game too; "Thank God!" I can hear my girlfriend shout out! For me, the move to direct rim drive has been really game changing. With my prev. belt drive I always felt my tt was lagging behind the spkrs' performance, cds pretty much up there with the spkrs. Now with direct rim drive/linear tracking I'm struggling to hear everything into the treble thru my spkrs, which I'm sure my soon to be installed Zu Definitions Mk4s will remedy (they have MUCH improved high frequency capabilities). Only the cart/phono stage remains a poss. way to go.
Cd and amps I'm pretty happy with. Just more attention to vibration control, bass nodes control and OTT balanced power (looking at pro-studio application 8kVA unit).
It's actually a strange sensation that a sound I'm likely to be totally settled with is 90% in view.
I say this both from a financial point of view ie current downturn making me plan purchases much more rigorously (still can't believe I bought that Marantz SA-1!), and psychologically (direct rim drive-linear tracking/xoverless full range driver spkrs really making me relax into my music with no perceived colourations). I'm sure constant upgrading amongst audiophiles is right up there with other sophisticated forms of obsessive compulsive disorder!

spiritofmusic August 04, 2012 16:41

hi Harris,

thanks for the kind comments. and thanks very much for protecting us by serving in the Military. if you have an interest in hearing my system when you get back to the PNW let me know and we can figure it out.

best regards,

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 20:55

Mike,

I have not had the opportunity to read your thread. I did read the great write up on your set up in Vinylphile. Enjoyed reading and the evolution of your system. Wish i could transport your knowledge and know exactly where to go with my system. Im a traveler with the military, so i keep my system simple. Also, i grew up in Issaquah and have fond memories of North Bend. I wish you well and looking forward to getting back to PNW in Sept. keep rocking.

harris4crna August 03, 2012 19:22

You must be nearing the end of your prev. never ending quest for 'that' sound. Have you considered the philisophical ramifications of getting there?

it has crossed my mind that these next moves appear to be clear 'end game' type things.

however; i actually view my 'end game' as occuring a year or so ago once the room issues were resolved. i was totally happy with everything. the MM3->MM7 and the NHB-108->NHB-458 are simply upgrades in the same realm as what i've had. if i elected to not spend the additional money to do these upgrades i could have stayed 'pat' and lived where i was happily. more significant in my mind has been to cull my herd of any extra gear and stuff that i'm not going to use long term. which to help fund these purchases i've had to sell everything that is not essential.

as far as 'getting there' and it's implications i don't want to get ahead of myself. right now i'm very curious as to simply how the performance will be once it has a chance to work itself out. i'm going to try (:-)) to resist getting carried away initially and allow myself some time to optimize and then to enjoy it before i try to give it perspective and suggest implications.

i'm going to enjoy the ride and the music.

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 15:46

Marc,

i am not a techie either. OTOH my son is a network engineer and so sets everything up for me. he gets on my computer (remotely with 'log-me-in') and fixes stuff when i have a problem. he did all the ripping and loading on my server. i'm even a hunt and peck typist (and a slow bad one to boot). it took lots of pushing to get me away from my silver discs and useing a server.....and all those discs are still in my room. since my server has been down for the last few weeks it's silver disc digital or no digital at the moment for me. i'm not anti disc, only that once you've spent time with a server, great sound files, and a good easy to use interface, that is how you want to do digital. and until you've tried that you won't realize how great it is.

obviously with my commitment to vinyl and tape i love the process of analog listening.

but digital has it's place in my musical enjoyment and a server makes that experience even better.

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 15:29

Mike, I'm coming from the point of view of a bit of a computer phobe, and a very pro-tactile person. Being in love with analogue, you'd have to shoot me before I give up on the whole fetish of playing lps.
But now servers/downloading is taking over, I'm getting a nostalgic feel for the little silver discs I've been struggling to love since the 80's.
In other words, ripping cds/sacds and downloading are not for me, not for a while yet anyway, and so I'll settle on the best old fashioned but quality way to spin those discs, just like lps.
Lord help me, I still collect LASERDISCS!
Obv. price is critical and the Stahl Tek is well beyond my means. It's just that as a no compromise design I thought you might be swayed by it, certainly before you put pen to cheque for the Darts.
But with your digital direction I can see this might be a blind alley. If you do get a chance to audition it, please convey your thoughts.
You must be nearing the end of your prev. never ending quest for 'that' sound. Have you considered the philisophical ramifications of getting there?

spiritofmusic August 03, 2012 14:40

Mike, what is the issue with PCM, excuse my ignorance?

i've always preferred dsd/SACD to PCM. i've posted here and around extensively about my perceptions. and lately since i have many hundreds of SACD's ripped to my hard drive that is mostly what i listen to when i'm listening to digital. it does sound more like my analog than any digital i have heard. i do have 4000 CD's burned on my hard drive as well as 1500-2000 hirez PCM files too which do sound 'nice'. nothing wrong with PCM in and of itself until it is directly compared to dsd. and sure there are many great sounding PCM files that sound better than specific dsd files as there are so many varibles in sources and transfers. i'm not trying to be controversial here. just talking my personal preferences.

so a supposed breakthru digital product that ignores dsd is a non starter for me. understand that i have not heard this product myself. it may make PCM sound better than my master tapes; or it may not. but on the face of it a product that merely improves PCM does not get my juices flowing no matter the buzz. i reserve the right to piss my pants if/when i hear it.

the price of the thing is not the issue......it's the actual performance. if i love it then the price does become important.

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 13:22

thanks David.

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 13:08

Congrats! on your speakers and amps.

dev August 03, 2012 10:08

Mike, what is the issue with PCM, excuse my ignorance? I know you were directed to the Audio Exotics HK forum site for the Dalby weight, and didn't get very far. It's on this site that it appears the selective audiophiles of Honk Kong are going collectively crazy over the Stahl Tek, firstly Vekian, and now Opus. The vast majority are analogue afficionados and feel the Stahl Tek is the only player that has the tonal density and ease of transparency tts like the Da Vinci demonstrate. You'd certainly hope so for upwards of $70000!

spiritofmusic August 03, 2012 07:23

Thanks Geoff.

maybe not 2030 for retiring, but not in the next year or two either.

Don't do a "Mikey" on them now. ;-).

i respect that Fremer has alot on his mind and lacks the 'paranoia' of ownership. he has the choice and station in life to be less than fanatically careful. i've lived with the reality of darTZeel circuit purity and relative lack of idiot proofing in the quest for ultimate fidelity for 6+ years with zero issues. i had the big 458's in my room for a month 3 years ago. they are really bullitt proof if a few basic rules are followed.

mainly 2 simple things. (1) always allow the amp to bleed off power for 4-5 minutes after turn off prior to turning back on. (2) no hot plugging or unplugging anything.

and a third for the 458's, remember to use the stabilizing bolts for shipping.

it's not rocket science. but for a harried reviewer i can see the conflict. all these different products and different rules. and i'm not saying this tongue in cheek. i respect that Fremer has lots of details to keep straight.

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 03:07

Marc,

i don't have a problem with you suggesting products. i've not paid attention to the Stahl Tek products, they may set new standards for digital playback. or, even if they are very very good, they more likely might offer a slight incremental improvement over other SOTA digital such as my Playback Designs. my view is that there is not any significant performance difference between the handfull of top level digital players.

i did scan the 6 Moons review briefly and it does sound like it sounds analog which is one reason i enjoy the Playback Designs.....a good sign i suppose.

based on my quick look at the Stahl Tek products, they are PCM only......which for me is a huge stop sign.

at some point if i get a chance to hear the product who knows. it may rock my world. my mind is open.

i do not have a digital itch that i need scratched right now. i'm enjoying the Playback Designs playing dsd off my server dac.....and it's really very good.....for when i'm in the mood for it.

thanks for the heads up. when i do see it i will pay attention.

mikelavigne August 03, 2012 02:34

Mike, I know you might hate me for my next suggestion (and to think, we've only just met via the internet, ha ha!). You're soon to complete a system to die for - nowhere left to go re improving tt (NVS), arm (Telos), cart (Anna), amps (top of line Darts), spkrs (MM7's), balanced power etc. It seems to me that there will be only one last component to seriously considering upgrading, that being your digital. I know you really rate your PD, but the Stahl Tek Opus cdt/dac REALLY looks the business, built to beyond-Boulder standards bulletproof, and various forum boards really consider it the cat's whiskers.
It seems to really marry the best of uber resolution units like DCS with true to analogue warmth and transparency apparently found in v.few if any other players.
So, if you have any change left over from the Dart monoblocks purchase...

spiritofmusic August 03, 2012 01:49

i did just step up and order a pair of darTZeel NHB-458 mono block's

Congrats. Don't do a "Mikey" on them now. ;-).

Looks like you'll now be retiring in, let's see - 2030!!

Regards,

metralla August 03, 2012 01:21

i did just step up and order a pair of darTZeel NHB-458 mono block's and i'm very excited about it. i had to gulp a few times over the dollars and retirement will need to wait a bit longer. not sure how soon i will get them as there is a wait list for them. likely a couple-three months.

when it does get near i'll need to sell the stereo NHB-108.

i am truely looking forward to the MM7/458 combo.

mikelavigne August 02, 2012 23:52

Mike, I think we are of one mind on this. And the last thing I'm going to do is claim this is the best and only way forward, Peterayer certainly got me to be a little humbler, lol!
But this is a real game changer for me, just as going to speakers with xoverless full range drivers (new Zu Definitions Mk 4s on their way!) have been for some time (Mk2s).
It's amazing that removing (what I believe to be) the dominant belt drive colouration of vinyl replay has led to the greater revealing of all the other positive attributes of analogue, which with a digital like precision, has me really investigating all those old favourites.
The amazing thing is the entry ticket to this rig is the cost of one of your top end interconnects!
What this all means is that I'm now a lot closer to the end of this continual audio merry-go-round: tt/arm/cd/amps/spkrs just about there. Remaining avenues to investigate: cart/phono stage/uprated balanced power/vibration control.
Will post system photos/write up on Forum when Zu spkrs finally arrive in the Autumn, about same time you HAUL the MM7s into your space!

spiritofmusic July 30, 2012 19:43

hi Marc,

it's great to see your passion for direct drive and the Trans Fi. and linear tracking done right does give that very solid and spacious soundstage.

as much as i agree with your perspectives on direct drive, i don't see things quite as black and white as you do in respect to belts. the better belt drive tt's can be pretty darm good. DD is just a bit 'gooder' at the top of the food chain.

similarly on linear trackers, they do have advantages over better pivoted arms but not over all of the very best pivoted arms. execution does become dominant ultimately and then i like unipivots as the best of the best.

someday i hope to hear the Trans Fi and Terminator T3 Pro and maybe i'll get that particular sickness too. :-)

mikelavigne July 30, 2012 14:02

Mike, a quick update on my experiences moving away from belt drive. It is without doubt the most positively surreal experience I've had since starting in high end audio in 1995.
The combination of the positives of digital ie lack of time domain bass 'smear' and image stability, has been combined with all the traditional positives of good analogue ie tonal density, soundstage transparency, micro and macro dynamic integrity, into what is almost a new listening experience beyond anything I've ever heard in top digital, and only hinted at in uber expensive tts at shows.
I would really recommend analogue afficionados to go out and investigate dd/idler/rim drive more fully, whether it's my Trans Fi Salvation, or TTWeights, your NVS, Grand Prix Monaco, Brinkmann Bardo, Dobbins Beat, tricked out Garrards/Lencos/SP10s.
I know for many the paradigm shift won't be palatable, and the euphonic colouration I really believe to be endemic to belt drives will always be a factor many like in their presentation, but the truthful neutrality of non belt drives (some if not all) will really float the boat of at least a sizeable minority.
Additionally, I can't speak highly enough of the groove tracking abilities imparted by the Terminator T3Pro air bearing linear tracking arm. So many times I'm really unaware of coming to the end of an lp side, so stable and uncoloured and spacious is the soundstage as the stylus negotiates those lead out grooves. Spooky!

spiritofmusic July 28, 2012 10:12

hi Joe,

thank you for the kind comments. i will admit that while the room looks impressive, it did take 5-6 years in the room for me to learn enough to make changes to finally realize it's potential.

so yes, the bass integration was a challenge. initially my original Kharma speakers could not do enough bass for the room. so i changed speakers. looking back my biggest problem was that the room originally was overdamped with too much bass trapping and absorbant fabric on the walls. eventually with the help of some knowledgable friends, i was able to decifier the problem and made some physical changes to the room itself, and then was able about 2 years ago to get the bass to really integrate right. my Evolution Acoustics MM3's do have adjustable crossovers and other bass adjustments and between the room changes and those adjustments i now do have what i consider excellent bass balance and integration....and a very smooth upper-mid-deep bass transition.

as far as treatments, everything (mostly diffusion) is built in except the RPG Skylines in the center behind the speakers, and the Auralex T-Fusors which are on the side walls and ceiling wells. the Skylines help to get a perfect center image by keeping the first reflections coherent. the T-fusors elimnate slap echo. neither are much concerned with mid or deep bass.

mikelavigne July 27, 2012 17:23

I am speechless, the room really shows all the hard work and planning you have put into it. If there was a Hall of Fame for audio you be in on the first ballot. Question, was the bass integration hard for you to get right? My personal experience has taught me that even though bass can be clean and tight it is very easy for it to intrude on the midrange and the cleaner it is the harder it is to detect. Did the room treatments solve the integration or did you have to modify the crossover? Or what was it not a problem for you at all? Want to thank you for posting your room is the finest I have seen. Enjoy

needfreestuff July 27, 2012 07:13