Bill,

good idea. i will try to remember to take some pics of the mayhem. i'm lucky i do have a few local friends who have offered to help so it should go quickly.

at the end, my garage will be full of 14 large wooden crates. i do have my camera in room and ready.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 13:40

Mike: Might be fun for you to do a photo journal of load-in and set-up, although you'll probably have your hands full...
Best,

whart August 16, 2012 02:57

On a scale from 1 to 10 ( 10=essential), how important is it from your experience the facility of being able to adjust vta on the fly ? Do you find yourself adjusting it for every record or for every group of records with particular thickness and how often? Do tonearms with vta on the fly hold the adjustment better over time than tonearms with vta adjustment but not on the fly?

hi Kostos,

my perspective on this issue has changed over time. in a perfect world all parameters would be dynamically adjustable, VTA, VTF, azimuth, SRA, even zenith. with the Talea 2 i was able to adjust VTA and azimuth on the fly. on the Reed, Triplaner and Rockport i could adjust VTA on the fly. and this did allow for a more precise dialing in process.

however, as arms become more precise, the ability to do these adjustments comes at a price of overall build integrity. every time you make an adjustment to a mechanical arm there is a settling process that the arm goes thru. and the compromise involved in providing for dynamic adjustments seems to extract a price in ultimate solidity and therefore ultimate precision and performance.

i have no scientific proof of my above opinion; it's simply an observation based on watching development of the Durand Telos tonearm and how the elimination of dynamic adjustments increased the performance. everything matters. and as distortion decreases overall, everything matters more.

i can see that at particular points on the performance curve, changing VTA on every record might yield some slight performance advantage. but at the top of the state of the art i think it would not be the correct approach.

so the answer is 'it depends'. and i'm ignoring the whole 'how much pain for how much pleasure' rationalization.

mikelavigne August 16, 2012 00:33

Mike, I'm always a little confused as to how separate bass towers integrate from a time delay/point source point of view. With your MM3s, the twin 15" woofers per side are lined up with mids and tweeters in a time aligned array.
I presume with the MM7s the woofer tower may be situated quite separate from the main towers and possibly some distance back.
I fully understand this new uber spkr will give you maximum capability in most parameters, but how hard is it going to be to dial in that just perfect bass integration with physical separation of bass drivers from the rest?

spiritofmusic August 16, 2012 00:01

Hi Mike,

On a scale from 1 to 10 ( 10=essential), how important is it from your experience the facility of being able to adjust vta on the fly ? Do you find yourself adjusting it for every record or for every group of records with particular thickness and how often? Do tonearms with vta on the fly hold the adjustment better over time than tonearms with vta adjustment but not on the fly?

Thank you

Kostas

kkatsipanos August 15, 2012 11:36

at this point it seems the MM7's are scheduled to arrive very late September (not early Sept as i had thought). the main towers will arrive first and then the bass towers 2 weeks later. right around RMAF, so i will be staying home this year.

this change in schedule is mostly due to the time and complication of building the first 2 sets of the MM7's taking a few weeks longer each than originally anticipated. i do respect and appreciate the degree of effort these beasts require. i know the wait will be worth it.

mikelavigne August 14, 2012 13:40

Llbelchevv, Dartzeel and Evolution Acoustics are a bit out of my price range. Personally, my limit is around $15000 per front end/amps/spkrs, and my list of components in my dedicated thread will reflect this. Will list them in Oct.

spiritofmusic August 08, 2012 20:30

Spiritofmusic writes:

Hoping to have my own system thread up in Oct.

Good man.

Regards,

metralla August 08, 2012 02:22

You're a man who really knows your mind, nevertheless please keep a lookout for Ypsilon and post your thoughts if the chance arises. I believe it's Jacob Heilbrun who runs Wilson XLF spkrs with them? Me? If that lottery win eventually comes in, I might support the underdog and go all Ypsilon. With the Zu Audio Dominances, 62" x 18" x 22", 350lb per side, and 14Hz-20+kHz, 3 x full range drivers per side and 105dB/m efficiency this would give me an interesting high end alternative to your uber set up.

Spiritofmusic, when you ready with your system thread up, please keep a lookout for Darzeel and post your thoughts if the chance arises. With Evolution Acoustics loudspeakers this would give you an interesting high end alternative to your set up. ;-)

lbelchev August 07, 2012 17:21

Metralla, a bit unsure why finding components to concur with Mike's positive view on non belt drive and suggesting interesting alternatives to his choices is frowned upon, but so be it.
It's not that I'm in disagreement. I'm sure Mike has considered gear as a result of suggestions from all sources.
Hoping to have my own system thread up in Oct.
Hope to be more specific in future contributions.

spiritofmusic August 07, 2012 13:21

Until then I'll stay on message and stick to matters within the correct focus of each topic

Thank you. It had become a distraction in this particular thread. Member system threads have a tighter focus.

Regards,

metralla August 07, 2012 13:04

Mike I completely concur with you, that I may inadvertently be provoking accusations of bias in my postings. Whart, when my new spkrs arrive in Oct, I'll get my talented photographer friend to take some component photos and then post my own system thread.
Until then I'll stay on message and stick to matters within the correct focus of each topic and not spread my comments too widely.

spiritofmusic August 07, 2012 01:18

Marc,

i'm hardly one to judge another on the subject of product enthusiasm. when i like something i freely share those views.

OTOH since you asked, from another perspective frequently jumping back and forth between Albert's and my thread and bringing up your agenda of gear however well intentioned might take away from the credibility of what you say. i percieve you as sincere and passionate but i could understand that some might question your intentions.

so where and how you post raves does matter. when people read my system page they expect to hear about what i think about my gear and related topics. i'm not trying to restrict flow of new info on my system page in any way. and i'm fine with your approach personally. you are asking about how others might view you.

personally i'm fine with whatever you do as i do think you are well meaning. so maybe think about it.

a better approach might be to start your own system thread and allow it to attract attention as it will.

mikelavigne August 07, 2012 00:10

Spirit, why don't you put up a system page? That way, we can post to your page too.

whart August 07, 2012 00:00

Mikelavigne,

MBL electronics, I have been there and done that having mine paired up with 9011 mono's and 9008's along with my 6010d pre and did not flavour the sound at all in comparison to other combos I've tried.

The VAC combo is a match made in heaven for me with the finesse of lowered powered tube amp magic, very happy indeed :)

Not looking at touching that set-up.

Not looking at competing or for anything better, audio as a whole is so subjective as you are aware, looking for just a different flavor but has to in the end make sence to part with the coin.

What mainly intrigues me about the Evolution MM7 speakers is how the speakers are designed utilizing separate pces and the powered sub tower units allowing one to dial them in their ideal location.

Reminds me of my IRS V's I owned years ago.

dev August 06, 2012 23:59

Thanks for your friendly and considered reply. This makes a bit of a change compared to the Zu Audio Definitions 3 thread on the Spkrs Forum, where a contributor is getting his nose out of joint over stuff that really shouldn't get him to raise an eyebrow eg he thinks it's unethical I'm allowing my spkrs to be professionally reviewed before I take delivery of them - in the UK, the high end audio scene is contracting, there are few pairs available of the Def4s, and I would love more people to get to hear about Zu who are a fantastic, ground breaking collection of audio enthusiasts and nut cases who really deserve to succeed on the audio scene. But no, i MUST be getting a financial advantage. Mike, tell me honestly if what I'm doing is wrong, I'd love to know.

You're a man who really knows your mind, nevertheless please keep a lookout for Ypsilon and post your thoughts if the chance arises. I believe it's Jacob Heilbrun who runs Wilson XLF spkrs with them? Me? If that lottery win eventually comes in, I might support the underdog and go all Ypsilon. With the Zu Audio Dominances, 62" x 18" x 22", 350lb per side, and 14Hz-20+kHz, 3 x full range drivers per side and 105dB/m efficiency this would give me an interesting high end alternative to your uber set up.

spiritofmusic August 06, 2012 23:46

Marc,

hey; i appreciate you watching out for my pocketbook and trying to get me to consider less costly amplifier options (you might like even better) than the 458's. i take your communications in the positive spirit they are offered.

i'm committed to getting the 458's. not that i could not change my mind if i wanted, it's just that i have not the slightest hesitation with my decision.

i've lived with the darTZeel electronics for many years and prefer it's lack of signature on the music to any other electronics. i feel it allows the music to come thru to my ears more as music. in addition to all the great things i've loved about the 108 stereo dart, the 458's bring a unique energy to the music which is intoxicating and involving.

it's what i want.

:)

mikelavigne August 06, 2012 22:29

Jason,

i agree with pretty much every point you make, but i would add one thought to your point about speaker sizing and rooms. and that is that with adjustable deep bass large speakers (such as an MM3 or MM2) can go in smallish rooms. and specifically when comparing the MM3 and the MM7 one can choose to just get 2 subwoofer drivers per side instead of 4.....only 1/2 height woofer towers. in fact the first MM7 buyer went that way more for avoidance of blocking a view than for sonic reasons.

objectively i do agree that rooms and speakers do need to be matched.....just visit any audio show and observe how the monitor speakers almost always sound better in the small rooms than full frequency speakers.

anyway, great advice and thanks.

mikelavigne August 06, 2012 21:56

When I heard Ypsilon, admittedly some time ago, it blew out of the water rigs it was compared to at the demo (and these were no small pretenders ie Boulder, Krell).
I've really never heard transparency and tonality since, and I have listened to a fair number of rigs incl. Tenor, Kharma, Mark Levinson, Rowland, Vitus, BAT etc.
I still remember the illusion (or was it reality, LOL!) of hearing well into the room BEHIND the room we were listening in, and stage width was as broad as it comes.
It would have been so underwhelming had it not got down and boogied, but it was no slouch in this dept. either.
I'm a bit perplexed by which brands make it and succeed in the uber high end. It seems that Ypsilon and Dartzeel are both highly specialist boutique brands from small non-typical audio nations, both bring cost no object engineering/aesthetics to the table, both bring unique engineering solutions to bear, but a brand like Dartzeel ride the wave of the apex of the high end exposure/take up, whereas Ypsilon plow a lonelier furrow.
Mike, PLEASE do not take this as a criticism, I'm sure I'd love your system, but at the outer limits of audio component choice both technologically and financially, I would be so curious to hear an equally distinctive case for final amp choice before putting my pen to cheque, and I would have thought you'd feel the same. Or is it all a logistical nightmare to even consider another brand (ironic if the more money one spends, the less choice one gives to oneself).

spiritofmusic August 06, 2012 21:51

Hi Mike, speculation and personal music sonic preferences come in to play at this level of audio equipment.
Marc might prefer one amplifier loudspeaker synergy that you and vice versa so it is really a personal audio system we are all designing for ourselves & our music playback.
To audition all the audio combinations in one`s system is impossible, my advice to readers of this forum is to audition as many audio systems as possible then pick one that producers music to your own liking and try and build around this set up in your own music room.
Room acoustics will also very from room to room so speaker sizing and placement are critical for the best results.
With this in mind the MM3 loudspeakers might be a better speaker option for many than the MM7 for their room size.

jasonparmenter August 06, 2012 21:41

Marc,

i would agree that the Ypsilon rig would be one fun to hear on the MM7's. i have a friend with that set-up on the big Wilson X-2 LF's and he loves it. if someone wants to deliver the Ypsilon rig to my room to try it out i'm game.

i have an opinion on how it would compare to the big dart combo, but it's just speculation.

OTOH i have no agenda to pursue it.

mikelavigne August 06, 2012 21:19

Mike, the one amp combination I would love you to have auditioned and heard, perhaps as a comparison against the Darts, would have been a full Ypsilon rig of preamp, phono stage and monoblocks. I think the retail works out to about half the price of your top of the range Dart 108/458 combo.
They all use tubes, but the monoblocks manage 125W/ch which with your reas. high eff/powered bass towers MM7s should be mighty sufficient.
I've heard them once in Europe powering Rockport Antares spkrs, and up against various Boulders and Krell alternatives there was no comparison - the Ypsilons had transparency and delicacy in spades, but could flat out rock when needed.
I know that Mikey Fremer is a massive fan of the pre and phono, and Constantine Soo of Dagogo had never better than the SET-100 power amps. They may be close to state of the art in the transparency/tonality stakes. I know I'll never forget that demo!

spiritofmusic August 06, 2012 19:45

DEV,

the MBL-VAC will be a hard combo to beat. at every show the MBL's seem to do their magic to my ears (with the MBL amps) and i can only imagine the big VAC's have to work great with them. it will be hard to find something better for your other room.

i can't imagine trying to do justice to 2 top level systems as one has had my full attention. good luck with that.

i have not really nailed down an actual ship date or arrival date on either the MM7's or the 458's.

i think my speakers will be here in the first couple of weeks of September. hopefully as this month moves along i will get an actual firm ship date. i know that Kevin has other products in the que ahead of my MM7's which need to be completed before he can start mine.

i will recieve the main towers one week and the bass towers the next week due to logistical issues where they are built....it requires 14 large wooden crates 250-300 pounds each so 6 crates the first week for the main towers and 8 crates the second week for the bass towers.

my 458's are in line to be assembled and then shipped. i have no firm date other than 'soon'. i'm told that is 30-60 days. so i'm figuring late September into October.

mikelavigne August 06, 2012 17:51

Hmmmmmmm...

Mike Lavigne, this phrase of yours..."underground tape titles;" by chance, does underground mean that the appropriate legal permission was obtained and the licensing fees have been paid to the artists and/or owners of the content?

unoear August 06, 2012 17:20

Hi Mike, when is "D-day" for arrival of both speakers and amps?

This should be one heck of a set-up :-) which really peaks me interest, I fully understand your responce above.

I still have my designated room in my basement sitting empty and have been mulling over what to place in there, been taking my time and so far nothing has me opening up my wallet. I recently heard the Sonus Faber Adia along with Focal Stella and was disappointed, mainly due to the cost vs performance. I have heard them a few times now and not much has changed, same characteristics and not for me.

My current set-up in the living room with the MBL's and VAC is pretty well done and I'm just enjoying "loving the set-up" and such will be staying put as is.

I'm just use to having two set-ups offering different flavours, prior having a pair of Avalon Issis speakers in that room.

dev August 06, 2012 17:03