Zanden?

andromedaaudio October 22, 2010 15:22

i did think both arms sounded good and that the Schroeder had greater dynamics and maybe more textural color.

That is what I heard too. Not having either of the arms I will defer to Mike and Robin on exactly what differences are attributable to the arms themselves. The comparison was purposely made dissimilar so that it couldn't be a 'shoot out' which was too bad. There were factors that were not controlled that needed to be to make this a 'fair' shoot out. Another issue, which I am sure Mike will attest to, is that there were so many people in the room that the acoustics were significantly altered. I am sure that the system would have sounded different with 5-6 people rather then 35 people.

I was sitting up front on the floor and the difference in dynamics was primarily what I heard. Moving to a position mid-way back and with a different recording those differences were reduced.

Ironically I felt Frank's selections served Joel's arm and Joel's selections were better served by Frank's. In the end though what was obvious is that both arms are very very good and like any other highend component synergy with the rest of the system that it's used with is key and could give the nod to either arm.

Chris
Tel Wire

cpk October 22, 2010 14:17

Did you get your room all sorted out?

yes, yes, yes.

my room is now where i've always hoped it could get to. not that something might not come along to move my reference beyond where it is and cause me to pursue 'more'.....but.....within my experience i'm there.

i mentioned fine-tuning above. i might be finished with that, but that is hard to say for sure. as i continue to try and stay open-minded and open-ear'd who knows?

all i can say is that piano's now sound like piano's. guitars sound like guitars. and so on.

the big dart monos and the Evolution MM7's might appear in-room in the next year; but those are no question marks; there are logical gear upgrades.

You are trying some Lamm amps how that going and any thoughts

those were sent along to a new owner today. i am thankful my friend allowed me to spend some time with them in my system. i confirmed a few things that i had merely guessed at previously.

--the darTZeel's clarity, lack of distortion, microdynamics, bass articulation, top end extension, and low noise floor are missed when you listen to tube amps. you become aware of the amplifier and it's character.

--a great SET is a beautiful thing to listen to. it does bring an intoxicating element to the music. it is something i would like to own to allow myself that option when the mood struck me. but if i need to choose only one amp it's got to be the one that gets out of the way of the music, not one that adds color.

--the Evolutions integrate with an SET perfectly. i cannot imagine a better way to enjoy an SET and full range sound with full extended and coherent bass performance. which means it is likely i will own an SET sometime soon.

will it be the Lamm ML2.1? maybe. or maybe the Kegon, or Topaz or who knows. i know i like the Lamm very much.

my 'wife approved audio' piggy bank has been emptied with everything i've done this year. the MM7's and Mono's might delay things further. but someday......

mikelavigne October 22, 2010 04:12

Was there anything that really peaked your interest in relation to vinyl,

i mentioned above the crazyness of my previous week leading up to the show. what i did not add is all the changes to my system over the previous month or two. i added the Equitech, removed bass trapping and added diffusors, and discovered an out of phase driver.....which i have previously posted about. these three things made gigantic positive changes to my system.

which then led to some fine tuning. i have not spoken about adding 7 sets of Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers to my system. these footers must be experienced to be appreciated. there is nothing mystical about their effect. evrywhere i put them they have improved focus, reduced distortion, lowered noise floors and moved the system performance forward.

then 2 weeks ago my new 'The Beat' tt arrived along with an upgrade to my Allnic H3000 to the newer model with larger transformers.

i get into these recent changes and my crazy week because those things really put in a mind-set of 'no agenda-just relax and see my friends and enjoy the music' mind set for RMAF. i intentionally did not bring a camera or a pen because i was not looking to hear everything or look for the best of anything. i just wanted to relax and enjoy the ride.

did i hear anything close to what i'm now hearing in my room? frankly; not close at all. maybe the Evolution room did come kinda close but nothing else did in the big picture. lotsa nice gear here and there.

here is a list of rooms where there was something good happening that i recall; but i don't mean the list to be inclusive because i made no attempt to approach RMAF that way.

--all the rooms with the Talea arms. both Galibier and tt weights. that arm is amazing in it's ability to find the 'nuance' of the music.

--Lloyd Walker's room with the small TAD speakers. very organic and had great ease and naturalness.

--Philip O'Hanlon's Vivid-Luxman room---some excellent tape sound. i heard a couple of new Tape Project tapes.

--OMA--Jonathan Weiss, very refined sound, stunning visuals.

--Magico, super detailed and low distortion, but it did not 'touch me'. i've never 'loved' Spectral amps. hard to put a finger on how i react to that sound.

--Steve Dobbins Allnic/Reed/The Beat room. this was my favorite tt sound at the show. low noise, sense of energy and nuance.....and precision.....involving. the MBL's on modest tube power and almost brand new silver cable held the room back from being 'super-super' but if the show had lasted another day or so it would have got there. great first show effort for Steve, congrats.

--Evolution/darTZeel/Playback Designs. my favorite room for overall sonic performance. coherent, extended, lots of bass foundation even in a small room. butter smooth on top and full of detail. no, not perfect, but about as good as a small room can sound......and it was involving. obviously very similar to my own gear from my room. with tapes from Bruce Brown playing the top sonics at the show.

"The Beat" was suppose to be premered there correct? how did that go because I haven't heard anything in relation to such.

You have had yours for a while now, what are your thoughts,
strengths and weaknesses, as you know we usually find the laiter once we are more familiar sonic wise with a pce.

i'm listening to 'The Beat' with the Reed 2P and A90 thru the new Allnic phono as i type this. i love it. i'm thrilled and happy with it's performance and ease of use. and it does not hurt that it's beautiful and impeccably built.

give me a month or so to really enjoy it and i'll get more detailed. with all the changes recently and my travels i'm just now able to relax and take it all in.

but just to be clear; i could not recommend it higher.

mikelavigne October 22, 2010 03:50

Dev,

sorry for the delay in my response to your questions.

did you go to the show?

i did attend RMAF and really enjoyed it other than the fact i started to get sick on Friday night.

the week prior to RMAF i drove to Portland from Seattle (375 mile round trip) Friday night to pick up the Lamm ML2.1's, Saturday and Sunday i drove from Seattle to Boise (1000 mile round trip) to pick up gear from Dobbins, then i was in Las Vegas for a business trip Tuesday and Wednesday...flying home wed evening. then Thursday afternoon flew to Denver for RMAF. so by Friday night my body was pretty tuckered out and the result was predictable. my ears were still functional until Sunday afternoon, when my head felt like a chunk of rock....until last night. so i've been under the weather and in bed when home from work this week. today i finally feel like i'm back and now trying to catch up. anyway, that's my excuse.

to your questions;

If so were you involved with the arm comparison? if so care to share your thoughts.

as promised i did remove my Ortofon A90 from my Talea at home and bring it with me for Frank Schroeder to use in the arm comparison. Friday morning i left it in the room for Frank. my understanding is that after Frank played with it Saturday afternoon he decided to not use it in the arm event Saturday night....it was not 'his cup of tea'. he also elected to use a phono stage created by the Artimus team (approx $20k retail) for the arm 'event' instead of the integral phono stage in the Atmasphere MP-1 which the both arms were to use. i explain this to allow for an understanding of my perspective on the arm 'event'. notice i call it an 'event' and not even a comparison. no one would logically listen to 2 arms in the same system with different cartridges; let alone different phone stages, let alone a $20k retail phono stage and an integral phono stage (10+ year old design which to be generous i would characterize as 'pedestrian') in a $10k preamp....and draw any sort of conclusions. i have three tt's and (now) 5 arms and 2 phono stages...all running at the same times. and i am reluictant to draw clear conclusions without considerable time and swapping around.

in any case, the 'event' was memorable for the assembly of analog luminaries and general 'fun vibe'. mostly i smiled all night.

all that said i did hear things and form conclusions; however flawed the context.

before i get into my take a few disclosures.

-i do have a 'dog in the fight'. i own the first generation Talea, Joel is a local friend (i consider Frank a good guy and friendly fellow analog lover too), and this past summer Joel did bring over the new version of the Talea a number of times to hear it in my room.

-i'm buying the new version of the Talea (it will be installed this weekend) and am keeping my original version Talea (along with my 2 Reeds).

-i did have a Schoeder Ref SQ arm in my system for 6 months 2 years ago when i had the Triplaner and Reed arms (and my Rockport). so i've heard the Schroeder in my system. i suspect it was never likely tuned to be optimal when in my system. obviously it's not in my system now by choice.

i do have my Rockport and tape players which are constants as references over time.

am i objective? i'd like to think so but i'll allow others to judge that.

considering all those things and the different phono stages and cartridges used on the Schroeder and Talea that night here is my take.

in every cut i heard the Talea to be more refined and detailed, and it was not close. the Talea had an ease and naturalness in the groove and as the music got more complicated that advantage was more clear. in the second session they played 88 Basie Street; a reference cut for me i have played maybe 1000 times. the muted horn is a real torture test for a cartridge and arm as it will mis-track if all is not right. the Schroeder/Sussaro could not track this passage and it was very distored, the Talea Dynavector sailed thru perfectly.

i did think both arms sounded good and that the Schroeder had greater dynamics and maybe more textural color. but i know how i view the MP-1 phono stage and in my opinion the phono stage differences accounts for that perception. on Sunday morning i did visit the Artemis room and spend maybe 45 minutes listening to the Schroeder and Sussaro thru the Artemis phono stage used in the 'event'. i do assign dynamic differences i heard to the phono stage.

anyway; that's my perspective on the event for whatever it's worth.

later i'll do my best to answer your other questions.

mikelavigne October 22, 2010 00:34

Hi Mike, did you go to the show?

If so were you involved with the arm comparison? if so care to share your thoughts.

Was there anything that really peaked your interest in relation to vinyl, "The Beat" was suppose to be premered there correct? how did that go because I haven't heard anything in relation to such.

You have had yours for a while now, what are your thoughts,
strengths and weaknesses, as you know we usually find the laiter once we are more familiar sonic wise with a pce.

Did you get your room all sorted out?

You are trying some Lamm amps how that going and any thoughts.

dev October 18, 2010 11:00

Mike,
When you use the Dartzeel system (amp, preamp and cable) you are using a 50 ohm cable system similar to what is used typically for high speed instrumentation. This system avoids reflections in the cable because source, cable, connectors(!) and destination all have the same impedance - 50 ohms. It is why the cables can be so long without losses.

I assume that the Evolution cable is also 50 ohms - otherwise the system would be mismatched.

The Lamm's are not balanced - the XLR just duplicates the high impedance RCA for convenience. The only way to recreate a similar connecting path is putting a 50 ohm resistor in parallel with input at the Lamm size - you can do it with the T BNC and a 50 ohm terminator. I did with success when using the NHB-18NS with amplifiers other than the Dartzeel - as you said the balanced output was not so good as the single ended ones.

microstrip October 09, 2010 18:40

Nice one mike , i would like to hear your room/system one day , have you ever tried ZANDEN audio i think you would love it , for example the 9500 power amp/3000 line stage , its the best i have heard personally

andromedaaudio October 09, 2010 16:50

Microstrip,

thanks for the heads up. although i must admit the technical concepts go right over my head.

i'm not sure if i was clear enough in my description of what i'm doing. my choices with the Lamm are RCA or XLR. since the darTZeel is not optimal using XLR, what i did was use the RCA 'output' on the dart into the RCA 'input' on the Lamm. when i attach the BNC->RCA plugs onto the Evolution cable at both ends it should effectively be changed to an RCA cable....although there is a compromise in the added plug in terms of connection integrity.

is there someting i'm missing? (i assume i must be).

my assumption is that the 50 ohm issue has to do with the output and input circuits on the pre and amp and the cable is not inherently 50 ohm by itself.

mikelavigne October 09, 2010 16:41

Mike,

If you want to use the long Darzeel 50 ohm cable you should use two T BNC adapters and two BNC 50 ohm terminators, not only the BNC-RCA. These cables must be terminated with 50 ohm. Otherwise, you will be compromising the performance of the ML2.1 Lamm's.

microstrip October 09, 2010 15:44

i have some visitors today, a set of Lamm ML 2.1's loaned to me for a few days by a friend. they are warming up now. i have not yet biased the tubes.

Lamm ML2.1's connected

Lamm ML2.1's warming up

i've always wondered how these amps would work on the Evolutions. and if i were to have a set of tube amps that i could plug in when i was in that mood these were the one's i had always been curious about having.

i've only been listening for 30 minutes or so but they seem to integrate perfectly. plug and play swaping with the dart.

i just bought some BNC->RCA plugs at Ratshack for the 2 ends of my Evolution 'Zeel' BNC interconnects and plugged right in.

i'm using the 8 ohm taps on the 2.1's which i assume is correct for the 6 ohm, 93 db Evolutions.

mikelavigne October 09, 2010 15:15

Mike-

Your comments comments on the new Puritas are most gracious. Thanks so much for the thoughtful words. We are really proud of the new cart and the upgrade results on the transformers, not only on the H3000, but also on the L3000 line stage as well.

Disclaimer: Allnic dealer

Joe

slipknot1 October 07, 2010 17:39

Mike,

Thanks for your kind response. This days I will have opportunity to test H3000 (not the latest). It will be interesting to compare together our conclusions.

lbelchev October 07, 2010 10:38

Lyubo,

i am in the middle of the 'internal dart--'latest H3000' comparison now. with the former H3000 the dart, when properly matched to a cartridge, was superior to my ears. the H3000 was more forgiving and a bit softer but the dart had much better overall clarity and refinement.

the new H3000 with the larger trannies is much much better in every way than the old one.

ask me again in a couple of weeks and i'll try to answer your question. with three tt's and 4 arms i need to mix and match the various things before i jump to any conclusions.

OTOH i absolutely recommend the new H3000 as an outstanding stand alone phono pre. and at $12k it's even a bargain i think (if any phono pre costing $12k can be a bargain).

mikelavigne October 06, 2010 22:06

Mike,

Do you compare Darzeel internal phono and H-3000? I am happy with Dartzeel phono - on 510R it is perfect match with my DV-XV1t, but I have great iterest on H-3000.

Best,
Lyubo

lbelchev October 06, 2010 16:41

Kip,

you are welcome.

i need to contact Robin Wyatt to see what i need to do to get the retip on the Miyajima.

mikelavigne October 05, 2010 04:14

Mike,

Thank you very much for the feedback on the new Allnic Puritas. With a report like that, it has to be on my short list. Thank you!

Kip
PS Sorry to hear about the Miyajima accident. I loved the sound of Gil Melle on that (remember?). Get it fixed soon!

kipdent October 04, 2010 05:12

Kip,

Steve did mount the new Allnic cartridge and we listened for awhile. it only had maybe 5 hours on it. i was very impressed and seriously considered tradeing my A90 for it.

speaking only of my impressions during an hour or so of listening directly after hearing my well broken in A90 on the same arm/table/phono; the Allnic Puritas is nothing like the previous Allnic Veritas cartridge. it has that feeling of refinement and ease, very low noise, and very dynamic with a great powerful bass. like an A90 with a touch more body. the A90 was more behaved overall due to being fully broken in.....although the Puritas was very quiet in the goove.

in the end i decided for now that my A90 is sounding great; and having 2 identical cartridges is a help in system development. it's more i wanted to keep my A90 than i did not want to buy the Puritas.

it's the real deal.

i did trade my Allnic H3000 phono for the new version (in black) with the bigger tranies. i did not get the 'V' version with the varible EQ's.

it's more than just more bass. this is a very significant upgrade to an already awesome sounding phono stage. it has a greater sense of ease. the soundstage is quite abit larger and you hear farther into the music. more delicacy and nuance.

did i say the bass was fantastic. good.

it reminds me of a much quieter and more refined Aesthetix Io Sig.

i'd be curious if anyone has directly compared the new H3000 to a Yipselon or Vitus or big Boulder. it might now be in that league.

in the "negative, but with a silver lining" department; we were remounting the Miyajima Premium Be mono cartridge and bumped it and lost the stylus. damn! damn! (hopefully a re-tip' won't be too painful).

after a moment of refelection....'we cannot allow this to put a damper on such a fine musical weekend, can we?'.....i looked over on my shelf and the Azden MM beckoned. so we mounted it on the Reed and plugged it into the MM input on the H3000.

as we speak i'm running in both the Azden and new H3000.

we have the A90 and the Azden both on identical Reed 2P arms, on the same Kodo 'The Beat' tt, and running into the same H3000 phono.

we'll see the truth 2500 post thread about MM/MC's soon enough.

mikelavigne October 03, 2010 19:55

I was over Mike's house yesterday to listen to "The Beat". I sat in the sweet-spot for about 2 hours and didn't want to move. This is the best definition I have heard from vinyl in his room. The excellent definition did not make the sound harsh or edgy. There were a couple of albums that Mike had played in the past where, horns especially, took on a brittle sound. This time with "The Beat", it was smooth sailing!
The coherency from top to bottom was remarkable. I feel "The Beat" bested the Rockport in everything but soundstage width. Even though the soundstage was wider, I still felt the images that it created were not as well defined as "The Beat". The engineering felt very mature.
Steve has done an amazing job with his new creation. It's something I could definitely live with for the rest of my life. Anyone in the Seattle area has GOT to hear this masterpiece!

crna39 October 03, 2010 19:16

Mike--

The Beat looks beautiful and I can't wait to hear it the next time I get up your way. I'm really eager to hear your impressions of the new Allnic cartridge as there is a rumor it may best the A90 (or more appropriately, be "different" in a good way). Please share with us your impressions when you can!

Kip

kipdent October 02, 2010 18:50

'The Beat' arrives.

yesterday Steve Dobbins drove up from Boise with my new tt, The Beat, and arrived about 4pm.

here's a picture in it's new spot.

Steve mounted a Colobolo arm'ed Reed and my A90 and we listened until midnight.

it sounds better than the prototype that i loved in April, and not by a little. even lower noise floor, and more bass and drive. my photo talents don't do it justice; it's a beauty. in 5-6 hours of listening i could not find fault and the music really flowed.

it's not right to criticize the Dobbins Technics SP-10 Mk3 'The Beat' replaced, as the Mk3 was really the imputus and departure point for 'The Beat' to begin with. OTOH Steve's new tt takes all the great things about the Mk3, and goes to another level (or 2) with everything.

there is an ease and refinement to 'The Beat' that makes you relax into the musical flow like the Mk3 never quite could.

fit and finish are top notch everywhere you look; the platter weighs just over 30 pounds, and i really like the power supply and how the toggle switches for on/off and 33/45 can be easily used without looking at them. as i have the power supply down near the floor it makes it easy to use in low light.

today we'll listen more, try the newest greatest Allnic cartridge, and the newest version of the Allnic H3000.

i'll take some better pics later when i get some time.

mikelavigne October 02, 2010 15:09

I'm looking forward to a return engagement, Mike...and I'll be sure to bring along Sonny for she has the more acute hearing - speaking of myself, of course :-)

I'd love to hear what it sounds like, now, considering the totality of the gear and acoustic development.

you and Sonny were a couple of the listeners who heard the room with the out-of-phase driver. sorry it was not right when you heard it.

Regardless, it remained a wonderful experience...no need to apologize :-)

Best,
Sam

c1ferrari September 29, 2010 08:21

Damien Jurado - Saint Bartlett's
Menomena - Mines
The Bad Plus - Never Stop (great music, so-so vinyl)
The National - High Violet
Peter Wolf - Midnight Souvenirs

The CD was Phosphorescent...if you liked it, buy the CD, the vinyl is awful!

Sorry we didn't get a chance to play the Smoke Fairies. The Jamey Johnson 'Guitar Song' is terrific. Darker than his previous. Very well recorded.

I don't think Dad really got into Menomena. Thanks for playing the Julie London, Basie and Sinatra for us!

Best,

jazdoc September 28, 2010 16:59

Carl,

i will never be 'out-of-town' for a month. :^)

OTOH you are welcome to visit and i'll buy the pizza. but no crusts on the Rockport, please.

btw; Mr. Dobbins should be here this weekend (i won't allow him to eat near the Rockport either). he's bringing my new Kodo 'The Beat' tt, and likely the new version of the H3000 and the new Allnic cartridge for us to try.

mikelavigne September 28, 2010 15:48

Kip,

your point is well taken. my standard speach to vistors is to be brutally honest. every visitor comments based on their level of comfort communicating. my system does create expectations which are sometimes not fulfilled for one reason or another. even if my system is working optimally; no system will be everyone's cup-of tea. i don't want anyone's visit to be based on feedback or any sort of expectation of good or bad judgement of what they hear. the focus needs to be on musical enjoyment unless there is some sort of analyitic agenda we are working on.

very frequent visitors typically 'let'r rip' as they know i'm hungry for that. we can have fun and enjoy the music and still there can be very critical comments. in fact; if i make a signifiicant change there are a few 'mentors' i call on to help me get objective.

feedback over the years has helped me to evolve as a listener, and helped me to navigate toward a more enjoyable and satisfying system. many times i've initially tried to defend my system or set-up decisions, but later upon reflection and over time found many comments do ring true. i've learned how my ego deals with feedback and so even though sometimes feedback 'stings' a little to begin with it almost always helps in the long run.

mikelavigne September 28, 2010 15:41