Mark,

thanks for finding time to come over and provide some 'independent verfification' for my changes. and thanks for the positive comments.

it was a great pleasure meeting your Dad, who really gets the music, although i'm not sure he shares all your 'progressive' tastes. it was fun playing some Kansas City jazz for a couple of home-boys.

i enjoyed the vinyl you brought over, thanks. i'm ordering the Leonard Cohen Lp; 'Halleujah' was fantastic! also getting the Jamie Johnson. i can't remember the other stuff you played (and i enjoyed them all), if you could e-mail the other titles to me i would appreciate it.

it was also fun to just listen and enjoy. i'm finally starting to forget the system and just play music. your comment along those lines (and some from a few others too) is really spot on.

and you are welcome to do more 'verification' whenever.

mikelavigne September 28, 2010 15:24

hi Sam,

you and Sonny were a couple of the listeners who heard the room with the out-of-phase driver. sorry it was not right when you heard it. i guess you have no choice now but to return and listen again, soon!

:^)

best regards,

mikelavigne September 28, 2010 15:04

Microstrip,

thanks, and good advice to test from time to time....and even better, test one channel at a time.

one thing that, looking back, made figuring things out more difficult was that the speakers were adjusted to compensate for the out-of-phase driver. the adjustability of the MM3's allowed the bass gain and crossover to be set so that the left speaker we mostly doing all the 'work' in the bass. and the sound was pretty darn good that way. no; it was not 'right' but it was not chopped liver. it was not until the changes to the ceiling trap changed the room balance enough to start back at the flat setting on the speakers that the difference jumped out sufficently to my friend who had a fresh perspective.

in retrospect any time there are multiple 'factors' involved it's going to be a challenge. so maybe also until i got the room right in terms of bass dampning the problem with the speaker would not be obvious.

mikelavigne September 28, 2010 14:53

This definitely requires extended research. The next time Mike is out of town for a month or two, I will house-sit the barn and investigate at length.
Hope you don't mind pizza crusts on the Rockport.

cjfrbw September 27, 2010 22:42

Mike,

Another thing I think might be interesting for some to admit--and I'll go first--is the feeling that guest listeners of wonderful systems like yours may feel compelled to be overly "polite," and if they note something perhaps out of sorts, they keep it to themselves out of respect. When you graciously allowed me to come over and hear your system recently, there were a few tracks that sounded amiss compared to my aural memory of their sonic balance. Honestly, I thought of the phase issue as I listened, but thought to myself "how could that be in this carefully constructed system?" So, I kept my mouth shut. Maybe I'm alone in this feeling, but I find it hard to issue serious criticisms when I listen to other peoples' systems. I guess it is a character flaw.

Congratulations on diagnosing and treating this problem! Now your listening enjoyment will increase even more.

Kip

kipdent September 27, 2010 17:31

I went out to Mike's last night to validate his findings. Mind you this was for pure research purposes, after all I'm an altruist :^). We played a variety of music, primarily vinyl. And yes, the room is still beautiful.

The change was immediately noticeable. I'll let others comment to measured improvements. The lower frequencies are more articulate and harmonically rich. Higher registers convey much more information...it's amazing how much music is in a cymbal. Overall the effect was absolutely delightful, joyful and relaxing. I heard nothing that detracted from the music and I suspect Mike is pretty close to what can be achieved. I was most impressed by the 'presence'...the recreation of real instruments and voices in space. Not really imaging, just the ability to suspend disbelief and forget you are listening to a stereo and not the actual musicians. Can't even think of a nit to pick. More research is definitely indicated!

jazdoc September 27, 2010 16:29

Hiya Mike,

i have been debating for a few weeks with myself whether to fully disclose my tale.

FWIW, I'm glad you did. You occupy an eminent position on AudiogoN and that stature has not been disturbed.

Vbr,
Sam

c1ferrari September 27, 2010 05:16

Mike,
I went through a similar situation sometime ago, but was luckier than you. I have always admired the Audio Physics Kronos, a large speaker with an active bass system having eight amplifiers and eight woofers and two lateral midrange units. When a good friend decided to change his pair they went to my home. As soon as they arrived I did the usual procedure – I measured them. One of them had a small suck out in the middle frequencies - I only noticed it because I could compare the individual responses. When I opened the speaker, I immediately noticed that one of the mediums was connected out-of-phase, switching the terminals solved the problem. They had been operating this way for more than five years!

Even with the proper phasing , the Kronos could not surpass the current speakers, so I still have a speaker that can not have the units out of phase as it has a single unit – the Soundlab A1 PX.

My advice – from time to time we should test our systems with an analyzer – I use a Behringer microphone with an EMU tracker USB box and a PC. If something goes faulty, most often only one channel will be affected – testing the channels separately is a good strategy. Our ears have a large accommodation factor – we quickly get used to the best, but also easily accept progressive faults.

It is little consolation, but think that you were able to hear the problem during all this time– this only shows that you are a good listener!

microstrip September 26, 2010 23:51

It's "Wave Kinetics" not "Waveform Kinetics" :)

sorry. :^)

mikelavigne September 26, 2010 17:55

It's "Wave Kinetics" not "Waveform Kinetics" :)

jtinn September 26, 2010 16:58

Jim,

i must admit i do have one 'hole' where i accidently allowed a spike (with the 600 pound speaker attached) to rest on the hardwood floor. the spike qickly pentrated the wood floor to the concrete below.

but i do use 'protection'. it use to be with some stainless steel pads with a dimple for the spike. now i use some very good footers from Combak; Harmonix Real Focus RF-999MT Mk2. these are small pyramids which the spikes sit in/on.

these footers do a great job of cleaning up the bass and add quite a bit of transient snap and life to the music compared to the spike into the stainless pads. they are not cheap.

i've not compared them to any other product so i cannot offer any relative value to other products. one i have not tried but want to is the Waveform Kinetics 2NS; which i understand is very very good.

mikelavigne September 26, 2010 15:49

Mike, are you directly spiking your speakers into the hardwood floor or using some sort of floor protection?

jim94025 September 26, 2010 15:19

hi Mike,

you are welcome....and yes, i'm very happy with how things have turned out....finally.

glad you are enjoying those LED lamps, and i'll see if i can get up to B.C. sometime soon to visit.

mikelavigne September 26, 2010 02:32

Brian,

of course you are right. for various reasons we did not consider 'attributing' the problem to the speaker. re-reading Shadome's post he inferred that too.

why did we not think of the speaker? it's complicated.

my first speakers in the room (Kharma Exquisite Reference 1D's) were not able to do deep bass, which i initially considered to be a speaker issue. so i switched to the VR9's which did much better in the bass; but not quite what they should have. i started to realize the room might be overdamped, and reconsidered my previous perspective on the first speakers. when i got the Evolutions i had a realization that maybe i needed to somehow reduce my bass trapping. in this light i considered the problem when the right side did not measure correctly; whereas the left side seemed fine. i thought; that makes sense, the right side wall is not structural, so it's acting like a diaphram and sucking out the bass. and away i went fixing stuff that i knew needed fixing hopeing it would also solve the 'suckout'. i want to be careful not to blame anyone but myself; but i did run my ideas past more than a few quite knowledgable friends and the direction seemed to make sense to everyone. none of the measurements pointed clearly at anything else.

anyway; enough looking back.

btw; my 'beautiful room' is still beautiful. my changes have not been done at the expense of the aesthetics....which unfortunately was not cheap.

next week i'm expecting my new 'The Beat' tt, at which point i will update all my system pictures to reflect all my room and system changes over the last few years.

mikelavigne September 26, 2010 02:26

Hi Mike - I have viewed your system many times but never commented. It goes without saying that the system and particularly the room are first rate. The story of your bass suckout, and the measures you took to "fix" it, is harrowing - the stuff of nightmares. Also, something out of a comedy of errors. I'm sorry you had to go through it, and that it took so long to figure out.

The lesson I take away from your story has less to do with perception and more to do with attribution. As you point out, your perception of the problem was correct, and it was confirmed by measurements. But your attribution of the problem (to the room) was mistaken, and it was that mistaken attribution that caused so much anguish. I have some thoughts that may help with your grieving process...

The audible characteristics of audio systems are emergent, in the sense that they are the result of complex interactions among a multitude of systems components (including the room). There's lots of evidence that people are generally lousy at making reliable attributions about emergent characteristics. The brain is not organized to easily understand emergent characteristics or the complex systems from which they arise, because the role they played in our cognitive evolutionary history was minimal. So, FWIW, you made a mistake that people make, have always made, and will continue to make for the foreseeable future. So forgive yourself.

Having said that, I can't believe you tore apart your beautiful room. :-)

bryoncunningham September 25, 2010 18:39

Hi Mike
Nice to read that you have the problem solved.
I am sure that it's good to get there.
The LED lights that we picked up works great, glad I got two.
Thanks for being host to us yet once again on our visit.
Ya gotta come up for a visit.....

Take care,

rugyboogie September 25, 2010 18:30

and btw; i've submittted Scott's name for Sainthood.....or at minimum 'audio buddy of the week' for finding the 500 pound gorilla in the room.

mikelavigne September 25, 2010 18:15

thanks Mark. i feel better already coming clean. :^)

btw; i'd love to get your 'independant verification' this weekend if your family obligations allow the time....or whenever.

mikelavigne September 25, 2010 18:13

Mike,

Well I can't wait to hear what Scott has wrought ;^)

Hey I admire your willingness to share your experiences and even laugh a bit at your own 'expense'. On a smaller absolute scale, I'll bet most folks on this forum have made costly mistakes. Heck on a relative scale, my mistakes are probably bigger!

I think your experience demonstrates the limitation of measurements in the context of assembling a system. We are all prisoners of our listening prejudices and predetermined ideas. For you, because you had invested so much time and effort, the real and measured problem had to be the room. That's one of the many reasons it's fun to have others visit your room...to get a fresh perspective.

I wouldn't worry about this. The money is spent and even before your recent discovery, it was world class. Now I just need to independently verify the findings...heh, heh.

jazdoc September 25, 2010 16:50

Brave of you to admit this. We all make mistakes and have had one of those big "Duh" moments from time to time - don't feel bad.

thanks. actually i mostly feel bad for my wife, who has supported the expenditures to 'fix' a room problem that never existed.....and in the process made the room better by fixing things i knew were problems.

This just shows that our perception and ability to discern issues with audio quality is rather limited.

not sure i agree with your connection here. i knew there was a problem. we measured this problem 5 times as a result of my perceptions. the problem was that the measurements did not tell us what to do or exactly where to look. so the issue was not one of being mid-led by perceptions.

Similar to your experience with cables.

i typically ignore references to my 'experience with cables'; but in this case i will comment. my viewpoint on my blind test is that scoring on a blind test is a learned experience. results of any blind test says much about the test but little about the person or subject matter. in other words; results are extremely narrow.

my opinions about cables are not even slightly different than prior to my 'experience'.

i realize the extreme positions of some regarding cables, and testing, and perceptions. i do not care about changing one mind about cables.

i am never afraid of learning something.....which is why i did the test.

mikelavigne September 25, 2010 15:53

after a brief listen i did not know whether to laugh or cry. i had been fighting the issue for 2 years and it was self inflicted. yet here was the performance i had been pursueing.

Brave of you to admit this. We all make mistakes and have had one of those big "Duh" moments from time to time - don't feel bad. This just shows that our perception and ability to discern issues with audio quality is rather limited. Similar to your experience with cables. Possibly a fair number of audio myths are related to simple errors like this - because they can and do happen all the time.

shadorne September 25, 2010 15:34

room update; peeling the onion.

my whole ceiling is one large bass trap. there are 6 recessed areas (2 forward, 2 center, and 2 rear) flush to the 11' ceiling and then the 'drop ceiling' extends 12" below that. in the vertical sides of these recesses there was 1" Coring 703 fibreglass covered in cloth. the low frequencies go into this drop ceiling area and are attentuated. there was also 2" of fabric covered Corning 703 flush to the 11" ceiling inside the recesses.

since i removed my front bass traps in January i have suspected that my ceiling trapping was still over-damped and ultimately restricting bass performance. so two weeks ago i had my contractor remove the fabric covered fibreglass in the 2 recesses in the front and the 2 in the rear and cover the opennings and the ceiling with 1/2" finish plywood. this was glued and nailed. i then purchased more Auralex T-Fusor diffusors (and painted them to match my other ones) and mounted them in the recesses so i would not get a slap echo from this now 'live' area.

the center recesses were left as they were so there is still some bass trapping in the ceiling. the center recesses also have the angled first reflection panels.

so in the last 9 months i've removed bass trapping in the front and sides and now in the ceiling. i've added the Equi=tech. i've added diffusion.

after my contractor was finished with the ceiling work i pushed and shoved the (600 pound) speakers (sitting on carpet remnants) back into place. the balance was totally different and so i set all the speaker adjustments back to flat and listened. it was much better. a much firmer grip and more even bass. i listened for an hour or so and really liked it. then a friend showed up to assist me in getting my speakers back on the spikes. once we had them on spikes he stayed and helped me adjust them to the now different room.

allow me to note that a main motivation of all the work i've done on the room in the last year has been to solve an apparent suckout on the right side of my room. the room had been measured a number of times. the only way to balance the bass in the room was to attenuate the bass and crossover in the right hand speaker.

back in January when i removed the bass traps i installed Quietrock THX 545 on both front and sides to establish solid and equal bass room boundaries in the front. all the things i have done have made things better.

so that night two weeks ago my friend is trying to adjust my speakers and he discovers that if he turns off the powered bass in the right speaker the system soundstages at a world class level but if he turns it on things are all confused. he tells me something is not right with the right hand speaker.

a light goes on in my head.

3+ years ago i got the the second set built of Evolution MM3's. about 5 months after i got my set the designer discovered that the first batch of subwoofer amps were mis-marked for + and -. i needed to check the polarity of my woofers. sure enough the woofers in the right side were wired out of phase. it was a simple fix for me to open them up and switch them and everything was much better. embarrasing for the builder, but sh*t happens sometimes and we move on.

except; i did not secure the wires fully. a few months later i had some visitors who could tell one of my woofers was not operating. so i checked and the leads had come loose. when i reconnected it i wired it out of phase.

when the light went on in my head i knew what the problem was. 15 minutes later the speaker was wired correctly and my mysterious suckout on the right side was gone.

after a brief listen i did not know whether to laugh or cry. i had been fighting the issue for 2 years and it was self inflicted. yet here was the performance i had been pursueing.

the truth is that the room had been overdamped to begin with. over time i had come to realize that. it is debatable as to whether i would ever had gone to the expense of removing the front bass traps and reducing the ceiling traps if i was not trying to solve a problem. also the Equi=tech was done for the same reasons. so i guess i had to endure the pain to finally get it all right.

i have been debating for a few weeks with myself whether to fully disclose my tale. at first it was like the ultimate head slapping....Homer Simpson moment. you gotta be kidding.

in the end i felt that others might learn from my experience. never assume anything. it's not like i thought all was perfect; or that it measured perfect. far from it.

i've had many many visitors over the last 2 years and i figured they needed to know about what they were hearing and why.

anyway; life is a path and all was can do is enjoy the journey as best we can.

mikelavigne September 25, 2010 14:52

i've heard the SME 20 numerous times and it always sounds very good. i'll check your system page for your comments.

as i was a Kharma owner (Exquisite 1D's) and fanboy for a number of years (still am for that matter), i'm sure the Kharma rooms are wonderful. a shame you could not listen to the Caliburn, it's a magnificent sounding tt. the Criterion gets fairly close to that level.

mikelavigne September 05, 2010 14:50

Yes im also curious about what to expect of the SME , i will write my experiences down on my system page , i ve never heard it so its a complete surprise as i dont know of a dealer set up here in holland , its more like a M fremer review " blind buy".
Ive heard all the vpi s , continuum criterion , I have seen 2 Continuum caliburns standing in the listening rooms of Kharma in Breda although there was not a cart mounted at the time .
No rockports here as well .

andromedaaudio September 04, 2010 15:44

Andromedaaudio,

the SME 20/2A should be a very nice and well considered upgrade over the VPI Scoutmaster Signature, congrats. although the VPI is an excellent performer in it's price range, the 20/2A plays with the big boys.

i think you will enjoy the improvement in lowered noise floor and increase in musical grip and drive. i'll be curious about your first impressions.

mikelavigne September 04, 2010 15:23