Hi Mike,

I'm sure it would be alot of fun to live closer and like you said be able to visit each other. I know by talking to Jonathan that you live in Redmond, I'm in Miami. Maybe one day I'll be in your neck of the woods and we could arrange a meeting and vice versa. I have always been impressed by your system and room.

Thank you for answering my questions on the Dart preamp. I can see that it is very flexible. Also, thank you for sharing those photos on your new tables. By the way, your Garrard 301 looks stuning with the plinth Steve made for you and the triplanar arm. I'm sure your Colibri sounds incredible on that setup. I first saw one of Steve's plinths on David Lanselm Garrard 301 here in A'gon. he even calls the plinth a master piece. I did a little bit of resarch on the options for plinths for Garrard 301's and found one made by Jonathan Weiss from Oswaldsmillaudio in solid slate. I was very impressed by the finish considering that it is actualy carved out of a bedrock of slate. I would guess that the plinth alone is over 100 lbs. http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/products%20-%20slate%20plinths.html (That is the link to it). What made you go with the Triplanar arm with the Garrard? Also, since you are in the quest to put togetter some excellent vintage tables together, have you thought of maybe having a Thorens TD-124 as part of your collection?

I also was curious to ask you what you think of the Blue Angel "Mantis" cartridge? I know that you had one recently in your system from talking to Janathan. The Mantis is one of my very top favorite cartridges. I arrived at this conclusion after trying severan very well respected cartridges sych as the XV-1s, PC-1, UNIverse, Koetsu Urushi Vermillion, Jade Platinum, Tigereye Platinum diamond, Benz Micro Ruby 3, including the Van den Hul Colibri and others.

I must say that one day I ran across the "Mantis" almost by accident. I found out that it was backordered due to the painstaking labor of putting each one together by hand with great care and love by Andre Hanekom in South Africa. I was after the Black African hardwood body with the ruby cantilever and had to wait 4 months to get mine. When I got it I couldn't believe what I was hearing, a level of immediacy, low level detail and transient speed but still with a touch of fleshiness that I hadn't heard in any other cartridge I had tried in my life. Please share your views on the "Mantis".

luigipenagos October 04, 2008 06:11

Luigi,

i forgot to mention that Steve Dobbins does get into upgrading and tweaking both the Garrard and Technics. he replaced the bearing in the Garrard, cleaned the rim drive, adjusted the mechanicals, removed the brake, and other various little tricks he mentioned but i forgot about.

on the Technics he cleaned and re-lubed the bearing, replaced caps in the power supply, did another lists of little tweaks i also forgot about.

they both are dead quiet when you put your ear up to them.....Steve uses a stethoscope.

i am very impressed with the job Steve has done.

i am not yet ready to define the level of performance of the Garrard or the Technics relative to other top level tt's. but i know they are in the class of tt's in the over $15k retail area.....and maybe quite a ways above that. but i need a few more months of listening and learning.

i am really glad i went down this path.

mikelavigne October 04, 2008 04:00

Luigi, as i read your comments it's clear we have very similar audio compass and sensibilities. too bad we don't live closer to each other as it would be fun to visit each other and enjoy each other's system and musical views.

i will try to respond to your questions.

the dart pre comes stock with one phono stage which can be configured for gain, loading and capacitance. the gain can be as high as 66db plus 11db from the preamp for a total of 77db of gain.....which considering the extremely low noise floor of battery power could handle a .1mv output cartridge.

i had Herve add an additional phono stage to my dart pre.....which is really handy. i have one set at 54db gain for high output cartridges and one at 62db for low output cartridges.

the dart pre has 6 inputs. one permanent phono input, one which can be line or phono, 3 RCA/BNC (zeel) switchable inputs, and one XLR input (which has a switch to allow it to accept a +4db pro audio input which is perfect for my Ampex and Studer RTR's.

you may think that the zeel inputs are not important; but my new Playback Designs MPS-5 is configured with a 50 ohm zeel connector and that is what i am using between it and the dart pre (it was my suggestion to jtinn to add this). it is very very good....and cheap too. i will be likely selling my $15k 1.5m Opus MM2 set of RCA interconnects as a result.

here is a picture of my turntables;

turntable family

the Technics SP-10 Mk2 with Schroeder Reference SQ is in the middle and the Garrard 301 with Triplaner VII is on the right. i will try to post more pictures as soon as i can.

the MPS-5 has taken a step closer to the Rockport than previous digital in terms of space and lack of digital signature. but it does not energise the soundstage like good vinyl can, it lacks image density and immediacey, it does not have the ease, completeness and continousness of vinyl. there is still a big difference.....just not as big. with the MPS-5 it is no longer and good-bad thing.....more a good---amazingly wonderful thing....thing.

the plinth for the Technics and the Garrard were built by Steve Dobbins [email protected] they are both constrained layered designs with removable armboards which i can switch from tt to tt. the Garrard has 2 arm boards. Steve uses 6 layers of various materials for the plinths. he believes that any all one material plinth will have a color which will get in the way of musicality. they both use Stillpoints as footers. the fit and finish is excellent and the Garrard is absolutely stunning to look at.

Garrard 301, custom Steve Dobbins plinth, Triplaner VII, Loricraft PSU 301 AR power supply

the Garrard is closer to the Rockport than to the MPS-5.....and i am still getting a handle on the Garrard. this past week i finally got my vdH Colibri XPP and installed it on the Garrard Triplaner......and we went to a whole new level of performance. it is not in Rockport territory of noise-floor or absolute command of every tiny musical line. the bass is still a bit overcooked. but it is so alive and flowing. and now it is way more neutral and more musical. i am compelled to focus on the musical performance and critical listening is difficult. i just want to play music and not for the sound but for the spirit of it.

when i originally purchased the Technics SP-10 Mk2 i did not know about the SP-10 Mk3.....which is a twice as heavy more exotic version of the Mk2....and said to be the ultimate direct-drive tt among vintage tt fanatics. recently i did finally find a Mk3.....so i will be selling the Mk2 (which sounds heavenly btw) and having Steve build a special plinth for the Mk3.....which will be more like the Garrard plinth.

mikelavigne October 04, 2008 03:42

Hi Mike,

Thank you for being so thorough in your answer. I think the only way to find out about the benefits of using the Dartzeel preamp using the zeel BNC to my Dartzeel amp would be to A-B it in my system against the Doshi. I know that until I do this I won't know what I'm missing.

Right now I have 1 MM input in my Alaap as well as 2 MC inputs each with custom loadings in the built-in phono stage. I also have 3 additional line inputs with one being balanced; I love the flexibility. I have read that the battery operated phono stage in the Dart preamp is world class. How many analog inputs and how many line inputs in the Dart preamp?

I also noticed that you started experimenting with vintage TT such as the Garrard 301. I've been a vinyl kind of guy for the longest time and I've been very impressed lately with the digital playback systems that are coming out these days, very close to the analog. However, I think that there is certain decay and immediacy as well as inner detail and nuance that can bring you so close to the live event that is so effortlessly reproduced through a SOTA analog front end. I know that you've had SOTA digital as well as analog front ends. You have come to the conclusion that your MPS-5 player comes very close to the sound of your Rockport Serious III, quoting you: - "the best thing i can say about the MPS-5 is that it has taken digital a large step toward the performance of my Rockport Sirius III turntable; closer by a good margin than any other digital i have heard. these comments refer to both CD and SACD performance." - Having said that, I would like to know how does your Garrard 301 compare in sound to your Rockport? Also, would like to know what plinth/arm/cartridge combination you are using with the Garrard? Was this put together by you as a DIY project? or did you buy yours fully assembled? I have read in a few places that a well setup vintage Garrard 301 with the right arm/plinth/cartridge can surpass the sound of many modern analog rigs costing over $20,000. Please share your thoughts on this. Is there any chance that maybe you could post some photos of your current TT projects?

luigipenagos October 04, 2008 00:38

Beerad, thanks for the kind comments.

i'm a fan of the Vienna Acoustics.....very nice sweet system you have there. i'll bet it makes great music.

i've had my eye on the baby Grand Beethoven's for awhile. what a beautiful speaker.

enjoy.

mikelavigne October 03, 2008 14:03

hi Luigi,

sorry for the delay in my response; it's been a crazy week for me with various audio projects and work pressure. thanks for the kind words.

yes; i do remember our AVS exchange.....congrats on the MM2's and the dart amp......they are a particularly synergistic pair. i've not heard the Nick Doshi pre but i have heard wonderful feedback about it from some credible sources.

the only preamp i've tried with the dart amp besides the dart pre in my room is the passive Placette RVC. over the years i had compared 10+ SOTA pre's to the Placette and always preferred the Placette.....but when i heard what the dart pre did that was enough for me.....particularly using the 'zeel' cables. i have tried other interconnects instead of the 'zeel' and i prefer the lower noise floor, naturalness and micro-dynamics of the zeel to any other interconnects with the battery powered dart pre. there is a very magical sense of the music and a feeling that the processed nature of the reproduction chain falls away when using the dart pre and zeel connection with the dart amp. i know it's a cliche but 'veils lifted' is the best description.

visitors sometimes ask if the dart has tubes as the dart pre-zeel-amp is simply so smooth and sweet; yet the noise floor is so low and the frequency extremes are all there articulate and extended. balanced and coherent top to bottom.

would the dart pre with the zeel BNC's be an upgrade over the Doshi? anything i would say would be a guess.....my guess is that it would be a step up or two over the Doshi.

the dart pre and zeel cables can be cost effective. you save on an expensive power cord with battery power, the zeel cable is cheaper than pretty much any other top set of interconnects (particularly a long run), the internal world class phono stage eliminates another power cord and set of interconnects if you do vinyl (and encourages you to do vinyl if you don't already), and the very simple remote and build quality make the dart pre easy to enjoy.

personally after i sold my Placette and switchbox, my Lamm LP2 phono stage, 2 power cords, 2 sets of Valhalla interconnects (one a 7 meter pair)....the dart pre and zeel was quite reasonable.

sorry i can't give you a more definative answer. if you do get a chance to try the dart pre or decide to go that way please tell me about what you think.

i still have not got around to the laser alignment project but it's on my short list of projects. your report causes me to maybe dive into that this weekend.

best regards,

mikelavigne October 03, 2008 13:57

I am jealous! Someday I will be in your boat, your setup is what I dream about. thanks for sharing. Enjoy your setup.

beerad September 25, 2008 03:50

Hi Mike,

I'm not sure if you remember me. I met you in March of '07 in the AVS Forum when I asked you a question on your Evolution Acoustics MM3 speakers, since at the time I was having a hard time trying to decide to either go with the MM2's or MM3's. I thank you because your answer helped me a great deal in making up my mind in getting the MM2's for my size room and also because it seemed like the logical way to go since one can always upgrade MM2's to MM3's simply by adding the top woofer module. Well, after a long wait of about 8 months I got my MM2's in November of '07. Right now I must have a good 500 to 600 hrs. on them and I must admit that they are making wonderful music, like I have never heard in my system or anywhere else for that matter. They are truly magnificent speakers. Jonathan also took me down the path of upgrading my BAT VK-150SE's to the Dartzeel amp. I was even able to A-B them in my room and I must say that after hearing the DartZeel my beloved BAT's sounded "distorted" (figure of speech) against the incredible transparency of the Dartzeel. Also, the synergy between the speakers and the amp, like you mentioned earlier, is nothing short of amazing. I'm not using the Dartzeel preamp, I'm using a Nick Doshi Alaap preamp. Therefore, I'm not able to use the BNC 50 ohm Zeel input in the amp. I have always wondered if the Dartzeel preamp can beat the incredible explosive dynamics and beautiful tonal balance of the Alaap. Have you tried using your Dartzeel amp with a preamp that is not the Dartzeel? What are the benefits of the Dart to Zeel connection?

I must say that I always enjoy reading your posts here. I find them very informative and interesting.

After reading some of the posts here about using a laser to properly locate/align speakers I went ahead and used a cheap laser level that I had laying around at home to do this against the flat surface of the tweeter, like you suggested, and was able to perfectly locate and specially toe in my speakers perfectly. Then I proceeded to center my chair using the same laser level and found out that my chair was off by about 2.5" to the right and that my right speaker was slightly less toed in, about 1.5" than my left speaker. I must say that after I finished doing this the soundstage and imaging improved considerably. Thank you and also Rhbb1b1, Mtkhl567 and Tuboo.

Luigi

luigipenagos September 24, 2008 01:51

Rhbb1b1, Mtkhl567, and Tuboo; thanks for helping me to think this laser alignment idea through from all sides.

logically; unless you can set up the laser to be 100% pointed in the right direction then why use a laser pointer? my speakers have curved sides so whatever device i use needs to use the flat area near my tweeters as the reference surface.

since the Home Depot type products are cheap i'll likely try them to see where that takes me then go from there. i am convinced that doing a more precise alignment will yield benefits in focus.

mikelavigne September 22, 2008 22:11

hi Chris,

there are 7 bass traps in my room. they are all framed into the room and so look part of the structure.

on my picture page on audioasylum are some contruction pictures. here is a link;

scroll down to construction pictures

there are two in front, on either side behind the fabric covering. these are floor to celing and in the corners extend out from the real sheetrock corner 18 inches to the corner you see. these start from the center diffuser behind the speakers and continue up the side wall to the side diffusers.

there are two diffusers on each side of the rear wall (4 total), floor to ceiling on either side of the Lp shelves. one in the corner and one near the door. about 2' square x 10' long.

then there is the bass trap that covers the entire ceiling surface in the drop ceiling. this would be 21' x 29' x 14"....less the open chambers.

the total of these bass traps dwarfs any collection of tube traps anywhere in a room my size....and they are capable of smoothing very low bass frequencies. the bass simply never has a chance to build up and overload.

the only problem i've seen from all these bass traps is when you have a apeaker that struggles to pressurize the room (like my Kharma Exquisite's.). the Evolution Acoustic MM3's have no such problem.....neither did the VR9's.

Rives did say that the bass traps might be overkill and i might want to cover some of the holes where the bass enters the bass traps if i have too much. i have never tried that but it would be as simple as removing the fabric covered frame and placing a piece of 1/4 plywood over some of the holes.

real world deep bass reproduction requires some control if you want articulation and tonality.

mikelavigne September 22, 2008 18:04

Hi Mike, the RPG Skylines look cool! Are the various bass traps standard bass traps or are they custom made for you? Can one have too many bass traps and what would be the result of it?

Chris

dazzdax September 22, 2008 17:40

Yes the Lasertronic may only be used to good effect when speakers have flat sides, or a flat top.
if so the measurements are way more accurately then any measurement done at the floor with tape or markers etc.
the digital readout in a vertical plane can be used to read the inclinement of both speakers.
Avalon, Wilson, Verity are a few speaker brands which can truly benefit from use of the Lasertronic. there will be many other brands ofcourse, but a cheapo laser leveller will not even come close to the proven accuracy of the Lasertronic.

tuboo September 22, 2008 17:33

Chris; btw, this added panel of RPG Skylines is the only acoustical addition or change i've made to my room since it was built 4 years ago.

mikelavigne September 22, 2008 16:09

Chris, sorry...forgot to speak about the center diffuser...the round element on the wall between my speakers.

it's actually called a 'resonator' by my room designer; it's built of 1/4" plywood over a wood frame and then covered with a maple venier......and is lined with 2" of Corning 703 semi-ridged firbeglass. the shape diffuses any mid-to-high frequency back wave and is claimed to improve imaging and any beaming.

i always thought it did an excellent job of helping with the soundstage but some of my friends thought that the center image could be better. about 6 months ago a friend brought over a verticle panel of 2 RPG Skylines. we leaned this panel against the center reasonator and then took it away. it definitley improved center imaging. then i experimented with a wider array of Skylines and a taller array and ended up with 3 stacked 2' x 2' panels centered.

here is a current picture;

Skyline diffuser stack

i think Rives's 'resonator' design was correct but it did not go far enough. i am very happy with how this looks and works now.

mikelavigne September 22, 2008 16:06

hi Chris,

my room is 29' x 21' x 11'. this is the interior size of the bare sheetrock walls which everything was built upon. all the built-in bass traps, the diffusive elements, the drop ceiling bass traps, and the media shelves were built inside this space.

every room has standing waves to some degree; particulary down the long center line there are nulls and peaks. the challenge is to minimize them and keep them out of the mid to upper bass region and lower mid-range where they can wreak havoc with where the music lives.

my room has a mild narrow suckout at 30hz which varies in degree depending on speaker choice and location as well as where my listening chair is. every room will have this suckout to some small degree depending on it's length. smaller rooms have this suckout at a higher more destructive frequency, larger rooms at a lower frequency.

as 30hz is a frequency where there is not much obvious musical content (and most speakers don't do much in this area anyway) and i do get bass information down to 10hz (it's +1db at 10hz) this narrow dip is not an issue.

also there are some mild peaks again depending on where you sit. if i move my chair back 3 feet there is a mild bump at 120hz and three more feet back and it's smooth again. every room has some of these.

OTOH you can walk around the room and it is remarkably even sounding unless your head gets within a foot or so of a wall.

the actual dynamic bass performance (as opposed to steady state measurments or tone-bursts) of the room right now is nothing short of amazing. having the correct shape and lots of built in bass trapping has large benefits. movable tube traps are simply not capable of controlling lower bass overhang problesm.....they are way too small.

the 'golden ratio' is controversial and was not what was used for my room. my designer feels that any 'magic' ratio will only work at a few actual sizes since how sound frequencies work does not change by a 'scale'......every specific length has different characteristics. i am not qualified to really offer a judgement other than i love how my room sounds.

i do think that the 'golden ratio' does seem to result in sensible dimentions for a room.....so it may be a good place to start. obviously you avoid direct multiples in any dimention.

i hope this helps.

mikelavigne September 22, 2008 14:18

Even if you use a laser leveler to adjust your speakers to say 1 mm exactly, how do you compensate for the fact that your right ear doesn't hear the same level as your left ear (no exception, such is nature). From the sweet spot I used a laser distance measure from left ear to left tweeter and right ear to right tweeter within 1 cm accuracy. Works for me.

mtkhl567 September 22, 2008 06:17

Mike,

You can purchase a laser level at any hardware store such as Home Depot, Lowes, etc. Price ranges from $20 to $100. The less expensive ones are adequate for speaker setup. My buddy has the SA-S and it is not any better than the cheapo laser level I purchased from Home Depot. By the way, it is a great, but inexpensive tweak.

Rich

rhbblb1 September 21, 2008 19:27

Hi Mike, could you tell how big your listening room is? Don't you experience problems with room resonance (standing waves)? What is that hemi-cylindrical shaped structure at the front wall behind the speakers: bass trap or diffuser? Have you applied the golden ratio rules at the time you designed the room? Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,
Chris Hie (Netherlands)
[email protected]

dazzdax September 21, 2008 18:12

Tuboo,

upon further investigation it appears that the Lasertronics tool may not be ideal for speaker alignment. while it potentially might work great; unless your speakers have perfectly perpendicular sides or tops the odds of attaining perfect alignment are remote. these sides or tops would also need to be flat and not curved in any way. the sides of my speakers are curved; and the tops are 73 inches tall and too far from my tweeters.

what is needed is a laser tool which can be aligned off the face plate of the speaker near the tweeter or mid-range. ideally a flat surface perfectly perpendicular to one of these drivers would work as a platform for the laser. most tweeters or mid-ranges do have some flat surface near them and those are the drivers which will primarily influence soundstaging.

the Checkpoint SA-S Laser Tools do work this way. i read a few reviews which describe the process of alignment using the various parts of the SA-S Pro Tech Kit 1.05.

Laser Alignment Tool Kit

here is one review;

sound alignment made simple

the reviews are 7+ years old now. i searched for more up to date information about laser speaker alignment but i found nothing. any reasonably good laser tool would likely be an improvement over doing alignment by 'sight' or measurement. but if i'm going to go down this road then it appears that the SA-S tools are ideal for the job and worth getting. after all my room design efforts this looks like the way to go to finish the job right.

thankyou for pushing me to investigate this issue.

mikelavigne September 20, 2008 05:32

Tuboo,

thanks for the info, i looked on-line for a way to purchase a Lasertronics tool and they want you to e-mail them in Austria.

is there an easier way to buy this thing?

i'm looking for a way to 'add to cart'....

mikelavigne September 19, 2008 23:05

hello Mike,

i use this one:

http://www.sola.at/453_EN.6277E4A12973084?View=Product&detailid=72&title=Lasertronic

it also does angle measurements with the digital scale.
great to set up your speakers vertically too, or at any angle you wish.
once using this gem, you never want to go back to tape at the floor. ;-)
trick is to get the exact center line at the floor first.
i have made a devise which 'captures' the laser dot at a piece of triplex about 4" width and 5 feet long.
on this piece i have set out vertical lines with a marker.
this devise can be set up every time and again. i even take it to audiophile friends. mind you it will not work with every speaker.
you gotta have a flat surface somewhere. or you can make a mould to a curved side.

the longer the distance the better the accuracy..
if you want pictures pls PM.

regards;

tuboo September 18, 2008 14:17

Jason,

sorry for the delay in my response....

and thanks for the kind words.

amp/speaker synergy is the heart of any system and when it's right the music flows.

btw, i love your system and the pictures are great. very elegant and tastefull. of course it doesn't hurt to have world class gear.

best regards,

mikelavigne September 18, 2008 13:55

Tuboo,

sorry for the delay in my response....normal excuses.....been busy with new turntables, work has been kicking my ass, had 22 people here last week for a local audio club meeting.

regarding speaker placement; a couple of months ago i made some major changes in my speaker adjustments (for the better); but it caused me to re-position the speakers.

yes; in their present location i still get that wrap-around effect beyond the outside physical boundaries of the speakers when the recording has that information and in any case the speakers seem to disappear.

regarding toe-in; i start out having the MM3's point at the outside of my shoulders and then fine tune from there for best overall balance between center-fill, image height, image depth, and stage width.

the soundstage and getting such large full range speakers to sonically disappear does require that adjustments on the speaker are just right.

a laser might make my process easier and more repeatable with practice; but since i rarely mess around with speaker placement i am comfortable with my process. it probably helps that my room is perfectly symetrical so i can always sight things visually to a fairly accurate spot. also; i use the wood boards on my floor like a grid for easy measurements of depth and have the center line of the room marked out for easy and repeatable measuements. if i had carpet under my speakers and spikes it would be impossible to get them in exactly the right mirror positions without a laser. my speakers are on spikes into stainless steel pads which i can slide around and nudge in tiny increments for fine adjustments. i can fine tune the position of these 575 pound speakers easily by myself.

OTOH maybe i need a laser....it would probably do a better job.

mikelavigne September 18, 2008 13:49

Hi Roy (as i recall),

greetings to Norway.

it is good to hear from you and it is no bother. i do remember you and our communications about various things.

i will e-mail you.

Andy Payor did 'test the water' a few years ago regarding a possible Sirius V and i have asked him about it a few times since; but so far i've not heard of anything happening. and Andy knows i would have serious interest.

best regards,

mikelavigne September 18, 2008 13:13

Hi, Mike!

Superb system and room. I used to frequent Audioasylum by the nickname Roysen. I hope you remember me. I have aquestion of private matter for you. I do not want to bother you so if you would help me on this matter please send me a message.

BTW, I have heard rumours of a Rockport System V. Do you know anyrhing?

Rhagen

rhagen September 17, 2008 19:35