Luigi,

many thanks for sharing Herve's e-mails.

no doubt the new mono's will sound wonderful. $75k+ was more than i was expecting.....but not 'lots' more.....i knew they would be up there.

hummmmmmm. i wish Honda sales were better right now....maybe in a few months they will be (not bloody likely the way things are going). probably a tt and RTR deck will have to be sacrificed to bring those dart monos home. one must choose.....

i agree with your comments on the MPS-5......it does enter the realm of good vinyl in terms of it's naturalness and ability to soundstage. it never sounds digital. OTOH it cannot go down that road nearly as far as the best vinyl and my RTR smokes it. this is no criticism of the MPS-5....rather simply the facts of the limitations of any digital compared to the very top analog reproduction.

i listen to about 60% digital.....all on the MPS-5.....i love it....and when i'm listening to it i don't ever get any sense of digital harshness or flatness.

mikelavigne March 07, 2009 04:02

Here are some more interesting comments from Hervé about the NHB-108 and the new NHB-458's when I asked him one time about the secret for the better sound with DC set to OFF on the NHB-108 and what kind of sound difference could be expected?:

Well, there is no "secret" here, only some audio electronic basics most engineers seem not to take - for some reason I don't know - into account...

In order to obtain best possible audio reproduction, the audio signal must have the widest possible bandwidth, so phase shift will be very low and completely out of the audio band.

Adding any compensation of any kind will alter the propagation time coherence (more phase shift), and this is audible.
When the DC comp is to ON, we add a small pole in the bass region (a bit more phase shift), and the sound is slightly less transparent and coherent in the bass region.
Removing the DC comp restores the full unaltered signal path, and the sound is just better...

Our competitors do not use this kind of topology, and the NHB-108 has then the small inconvenience of exhibiting DC drift over temperature when DC comp is off. But the gain in sound transparency is much better than the inconvenient brought by DC drift....

Right after the NHB-108 made its first cry in my lab, ten years ago, we nevertheless continued our research and development, trying to offer both very low phase shift and no DC drift over temperature. We succeeded in designing the new circuits for the soon to come NHB-458 monoblocks, in which there is no more DC drift, while keeping extremely wide bandwidth, still without using any kind of compensation.
As the new circuits are quite different in the layout, it is not possible to implement them in the NHB-108.
Anyway, under normal condition, we can always adjust DC drift for proper operation. So I think your machine maybe has a small problem in the left channel, and we will fix it - if confirmed - as I told you...

The soon to come NHB-458 will exhibit very same darTZeel sound signature people liked so much. The NHB-108 is still the best amplifier we can do right now, the only main difference is that the NHB-458 will be more powerful. Putting much more power in a monoblock without altering the sound was our main concern, so the reason we had to design another circuit for the NHB-458, which is of course very similar to NHB-108's, but with some changes to cope with the increased output power.

Hope I answered your question....

And this is what he answered in one of his e-mails prior to T.H.E. show when I asked him about the output power of the new monoblocks:

Well, the NHB-458 was intended to deliver 450 watts into 8 ohms, and about 650 watts into 4 ohms.

But I think we will be a bit higher than these figures for the commercial series...
The prototypes we will have for CES (only the electronics installed on a wooden plate) gave more than 500 watts under 8 ohms, and 800 watts under 4 ohms!
And the power supply is not the final one, I think we will be still 10% higher than that... With same sound quality found in the NHB-108.
Just do not ask for the price, since I do not know at all.... :-)

Enjoy,

Luigi

luigipenagos March 07, 2009 02:33

Hi Bigamp,

I asked Hervé about the price of the new monos and this is what the man himself answered:

The price...
At this moment we still don't know, but the pair will be between CHF k80 and k100.
Not very cheap in absolute, but worthing every cent...
They will sell only under special pre-deposit order.
Launching time for this summer.

Which means that the new amps are projected to retail for around US$75,000 to $80,000.

Mike, BTW considering myself an all analog guy, I never thought I'd ever say this of a digital front end, but the new MPS-5 is the best digital I have ever heard and as close to vinyl as it gets and with the new software update it got even better. I have almost stoped listening to my record collection because I can't stop spinning the red book CD's that to me sound on the MPS-5 like SACD's. All I'm buying now is red book CD's which has put a few bucks in my pocket considering the cost of good vinyl today. I'd say that the MPS-5 is a true new reference in digital playback.

Happy listening,

Luigi

luigipenagos March 07, 2009 02:15

Bigamp, we can guess about the price of the new dart monos but i have not heard anything about it yet.

regarding the new tt's; as you have a Dobbins/Garrard 301/Triplaner too i don't need to tell you how much fun music is to listen on that table. it is alive.

lately i've been playing around with my Rockport too. i had not checked the dampning trough (silicone filled) since i purchased the Rockport 6 years ago. it seems that the fluid level had slightly dropped over time and that had been causing a slight bit of leaness with my Colibri. i had wondered what the source of this might be and i think i've found it. anyway; i am now experimenting with the ideal level of silicone for the perfect balance.

lastly; Steve is 'almost' (he's been almost finished for a few weeks now) finished with the Technics SP-10 Mk3 plinth. i can say that it will be a sandwich of man-made slate and aluminum and have a natural finish. it will have arm boards for two arms. i have not yet seen any pictures. i'm not sure yet which arm will be on it.

....the journey continues...

mikelavigne March 07, 2009 01:38

Perhaps I missed this up in the thread. Does anyone know the expected price for the new Dart monos?

Mike, it's fun to follow your journey with the new tables.

bigamp March 06, 2009 22:03

it is indeed great to read Herve's explanation and thoughts.
yes the DartZeel amps contain some pretty smart thinking and reflect a great mind i dare to say.
btw what is the status of the Viola Audiolabs and the Matthew James Cello amplifiers? are they still in business?
i used to own Cello too and enjoyed them very much.

keep em spinning :-)

tuboo March 06, 2009 20:26

Luigi,

thanks for sharing Herve's response; it was what i expected. yes; we all start saving.....

Tuboo,

i just read the NHB-108 manual and did read about the toggle for low and high impedence when bi-amping.....i never knew about that when i was bi-amping my VR9's.....interesting. i wonder if it would have made a difference.

i did know about the NHB-18NS preamp adjustment that can be made when bi-amping or tri-amping (with the zeel cables only) by restricting the frequency outputs of each output.

really quite well thought out by Herve.

mikelavigne March 06, 2009 15:01

Luigipenagos
great posting.
ofcourse Dartzeel would like to see lots of trade in for their mono's :-) only a happy few did listen to them and maybe they could offer a true performance gain over the nhb108 well see.
yes the advantage of 2/3 dB SPL is true. btw 3 dB is a LOT.
it depends on speaker concept if two nhb108 will be an true advantage. in my case with the Verity speakers there is great possibility on vertical bi-amping and reports on good performance gains doing so by many owners / reviewers.
there is a trick hidden inside the nhb108 in which you can set the bass channel to low impedance and the mid/high channel to high impedance in case of vertical biamping.
in my case the lowest impedance dip is reported 4.4 ohms so not really a disaster for nhb108.
but nevertheless this is a option worth to try out.
there is another thing to adress.
with two nhb108 in a vertical bi-amp situation they have an easier 'job' to do put in laymen talk.
with earlier experiences behind me, this can mean greater control, more grip resulting in a more effortless experience with better soundstage.
with two nhb108 in vertical biamp there are still only two transistors each channel so purity once again rules.
pls share your thoughts and experiences on this.

tuboo March 06, 2009 10:40

i did have the dual stereo NHB-108's on the VR9's and no doubt they had a certain magic and immediacy compared to the single stereo NHB-108 on the VR9's.

will that be better than a single set of dart mono's? that's a question only answered by listening or maybe an e-mail to Herve.

Hi Mike,

I e-mailed Hervé and asked him about running 2 NHB-108's instead of 1 and this is what he answered:

Using 2 NHB-108 is possible in "vertical" bi-amp: one amplifier for the bass section, one for the mid/high section. This was possible with the VR9s, but not with the Evolution Acoustics.

Anyway using 2 NHB-108 will "only" give you a marginal 2-3 dB more SPL. Sound can be slightly improved, but here again the gain is quite small. Much better thinking about the future NHB-458, which will allow for about 6-7 dB more SPL, with slightly enhanced transparency.

Anyway, the NHB-108 still remains a true reference, and will continue to be one, in that price/power range.

So, I guess we all better start saving up for those wonderfull NHB-458's ;)

Regards,

Luigi

luigipenagos March 06, 2009 02:52

Question answered! thanks.

"As much as I liked the 2.2, the dartzeel just sounds better. It is picky about speakers preferring an efficient one but so what you only need one pair of speakers and then it will Sing! the synergy of the preamp with the amp is what makes it super special. The combo reduces me to tears sometimes it's so magical."

copied from another topic.
i think my savings need to speed up.
cheers

tuboo March 02, 2009 08:14

"one other nice consideration of the zeel cable is that it can be 'any' length up to 1/2 Kilometer and the sound will be the same, so you can place the Playback Designs near your sitting position without sonic penalty."

Not to underestimate financial penalty these days, and ability to hide the Zeel vs standard ICs due to their thinness!

Tuboo, the model B is what you get today if you order one, model A you might be able to get second hand if you wait long enough for someone to part with one (which is fairly rare!). Its not a rumor, model B just succeeded model A some time after its introduction. Sonically there is no difference, just the DC comp circuit - if you wanted to use it - is included.

mtkhl567 March 02, 2009 02:36

Elescher, thanks.

i prefer Herve's 'zeel' cable by a small margin to my Valhalla and even my Transparent Opus MM2. it's a bit more 'not there' with no color or signature whatsoever.....and it's nearly free in comparison.

i like both the Valhalla and especially the upgraded Opus MM2 in every way. the Opus MM2 upgrade made a big difference in top end air and overall energy. on other sources those cables are excellent.....so they are keepers.

but if you own a dart pre then there is no reason not to also own the Playback Designs and use the 'zeel'. in my case the retail on the Opus MM2 1.5m RCA's is about the same as the Playback Designs + the zeel cable together.

one other nice consideration of the zeel cable is that it can be 'any' length up to 1/2 Kilometer and the sound will be the same, so you can place the Playback Designs near your sitting position without sonic penalty.

mikelavigne March 01, 2009 17:04

Hi Mike...nice to have you back. I am wondering which you prefer? the Dartzeel 50 ohm cable or your long time reference interconnect between CD player and preamp.

elescher March 01, 2009 16:02

now thats relevant information Mtkhl!
great to get such info from field owners.
maybe you can answer my question on the B version: if all Dart amps are delivered in B version as a standard nowadays. sounds a logical move to me.
but maybe this is only rumour, maybe not.
for time beeing i wish you strenght not able to listen any music.. enjoy the eagerness until hooking up everthing again. there may be sure different sound getting into a different room. by all means keep us posted.
cheers

tuboo March 01, 2009 10:41

Jtinn, Tuboo, my personal experience in running the 108 version B amp and DC compensation is that I've never required replacing any fuses when internal DC compensation jumpers are set to OFF. If you bias both left and right channel, which is easy to do with the supplied screw driver and a small torch, to -300mV each when the amp is at operating temperature, it will NEVER blow a fuse. Blowing a fuse kicks in at plus or minus 2000mV. When turning on the amp it will swing start from about +1600mV and will settle around -300mV (if so biased properly) between 5-15 minutes of power ON, indicated by the blinking eyes. Alternatively Herve can supply a 22-Ohm resistor jumper for each output terminal that eliminates this DC swing alltogether. I personally didn't get these jumpers because my amp is ON 24/7.

God, I miss my music, couple more weeks...

mtkhl567 March 01, 2009 10:15

02-23-09: Jtinn
Microstrip: There are no capacitors in the signal path at all with any of the Evolution Acoustics models. For all intensive purposes imagine that there is just wire running from the speaker binding posts to the terminals on the drivers.

I hope this answers your question.

Best Regards,

Jonathan Tinn
Evolution Acoustics

Hi Jonathan
What about on the tweeter section, no capacitors or inductors in the signal path here?
Thanks Jason.

jasonparmenter February 28, 2009 18:37

Thanks for all replies.
the B version (NHB108) has besides the auto DC compensation, balanced transformers at the XLR inputs. the NHB18/B version just the same with transformers at its outputs.
this way an purely SE amplifier can still operate with fully balanced connection and this topology is clearly derived from recording and studio operation. it is all choices in topology, no right nor wrong just choices. clever thinking of Herve to not use double transistors and keep purity in amplification, but nevertheless offering full balanced operation for a given situation.
pls correct if you please.

my question though concerns if DartZeel offers all amps in B version as standard nowadays. i have heard this, but not sure.
the B version is reported to have carried a higher price tag as opposed to the A but this i don't know for sure too.

version B makes it indeed more versatile in operation,
but most Dart owners report the Zeel 50 interconnection offering the last word in performance but hey not all Dart owners use Dart 18 > 108 as combo!
as for convenience to use XLR cables Lamm tube amplifiers have the XLR too besides the RCA. if a pin 1 to 3 jumper is used there is not a problem in using XLR cables.

so maybe i had to put my question somewhat different.
i hope you all get the clue. still saving up.
cheers;

tuboo February 28, 2009 16:44

Mike: Sorry to correct you, but the "A" version does not have DC compensation and has "unbalanced" XLRs.

The "B" version gives you the ability to engage DC compensation so one does not need to bias the amplifier. With DC comp engaged, you reduce the signal to noise ratio by approximately 10 db, but the amp is more stable. With DC comp off, which is emulating an "A" version, the amp has greater purity but is subject to power fluctuations and may go out of bias temporarily which could require in rare cases fuse replacements. Also, the XLR inputs accept balance connections where the "A" version does not.

Hope this helps.

jtinn February 28, 2009 05:09

i just noticed i mistakenly wrote the Version B of the amp had Balanced "outputs".....obviously, an amplifier would have Balanced "inputs". sorry.

mikelavigne February 27, 2009 20:52

Tuboo,

i assume you are refering to the Stereo amplifier darTZeel NHB-108. the earliest NHB-108's did not have balanced outputs; and there were medium efficiency speakers which these earliest amps would have some degree of issue in fully controlling the bass.

so a few years back they added the balanced inputs and made it so you could turn off the DC compensation. turning off the DC compensation made the amp very slightly less refined but added bass control.

if you use this later (version 'B') model with single ended or 'zeel' connectors and use the DC compensation 'on' then it is identical to the earlier amp. version 'B' is simply more flexible.

i've had both in my system and they sound the same in the context i have used them. for 'bi-amping' as you are considering either version would be fine.

mikelavigne February 27, 2009 20:48

question: is the B version still an option or does DartZeel skip the A version?
not sure to me.
still saving up.

tuboo February 27, 2009 20:13

Lapierre; yes; i had a Studer tech, Fred Thal, refurb my Studer A820. he had it for 9 months. Fred is the moderator of 'The Studer List'. it was not cheap but i think it was worth it.

i also have a completely refurbished Ampex ATR-102.

mikelavigne February 25, 2009 15:34

Mike did you refurbish the Studer deck? Nice to read about some Reel to Reel for a change of pace.

Interesting interview by Andreas Koch on computer audio...

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/ca_koch.htm

Spin the Yellowjackets,
pierre

lapierre February 25, 2009 15:06

i've been really enjoying the music lately.

the Playback Designs MPS-5 has had a software upgrade which has taken the redbook to another level. the difference is small in the sense that it was already very good. but the noise floor is lower, more recording venue information is eveidant on familiar recordings. there is a bit more depth. tiny delicate musical lines are more fleshed out and overall just a bit more musical involvement. voices, strings, and pianos are just more 'there'. this upgrade had zero cost and took about 15 minutes. i've done quite a few 2-3 hours redbook listening sessions which have been very satisfying. the best redbook i have yet heard anywhere.

i've also been enjoying the Dobbins Garrard 301. i'm breaking in a new vdH Colibri XCP HO .45mv output cartridge. i'm at about 75 hours and it's starting to really settle down and come together.

this tt has such a great deal of energy and life. it brings a sense of image density and vividness. i never get tired of feeding it Lp after Lp. i listened to the MoFi of Abbey Road yesterday and i'm not sure i've ever enjoyed music more. greatest all time group at their musical peak and i was caught up in it completely.

is the Garrard the very last word in tt's? the best this or that? maybe not but who cares when it makes great music.

and it does.

lastly; i've likely listened to more RTR tape in the last 10 days than i had for the last 6 months. i think i finally broke the code.

3 months ago when the Holy Trinity (Albert, Steve and Larry) visited me; i played a few tapes for them on the Studer. they were a bit underwhelmed, mostly because it sounded a bit dry and lean while being considerably more detailed and dynamic than the Lps. i had only played the Studer for them; and Albert wondered whether the dPv Technics might sound better as Tim deParavicni's mods would likely sound more like the tubes the Albert loves so much. Albert particularly recommended that i turn the Technics on and leave it on for a couple of months to allow it to burn in a bit.

so that is what i did. it's been 'on' since November.

last week a local audiophile wanted to hear the tapes so we arrainged to have him visit on this past Saturday. i decided to turn the Studer on on Thursday and see how it would sound with a couple of days to warm up (i had been afraid up till this point to have the Studer on for more than 4 or 5 hours at a time).

in retrospect the result was predictable. the dPv Technics did sound very nice, very detailed, dynamic and listenable. it has a nice full bottom end and great flow. very musical. but now the Studer is much more natural sounding; and honestly it kinda humbles the dPv Technics at most everything. more detail, more refined, everything laid out more clearly and impactfully. the dynamics are other-worldly real sounding, with no reference in the recorded music realm i've ever heard.....but then my experience listening to RTR is limited.....i suppose it gets better yet. i am no longer as anxious to add custom output electronics to the Studer as it is now very musical.....but i know that it can be better.

forget about hi-rez downloads, SACD, 45's or DTD. they cannot touch this.

last night i listened to 2 full reels of Count Basie's big band playing a private New Year's Eve party in 1961. 60 minutes of full tilt boggie big band recorded live to 2-track. no other format can even approach the soaring dynamics, the rock solid images, the nuance and subtey, and the recreation of real space. there is no color, no 'conversion signature', and no sense of a reproduction chain.

just music.

mikelavigne February 25, 2009 05:40

Wavetrader; thanks for the kind words.

your use of the word cacoon brings back the design phase of the room. in my talks with the room designer we spoke of 'cacooning' the room in a sandwitch of 5/8" sheetrock, 1/2" soundboard, and 5/8" sheetrock. then seal all the seams with sealer and everything was built inside that cacoon. i do get that feeling of 'separated from the big, bad world' sometimes.

mikelavigne February 24, 2009 15:03