Hello Mike,

i see you have toed in your MM3 to a great amount.
they are set apart a fair distance too.
likely the soundstage should 'fill in' superbly between the speakers, but do you experience left and right extension still?
it makes me think, because i'm in the stage of discovering how the set up my Lohengrin's. nothing really wrong up to now, but i'm tuning in... and not drop out.
i do set up using a laser, and use an wooden ruler at a stand back in my room. it makes adjustments soo repeatable, easy and extremely accurate all at the same time. cannot do without laser anymore.

pls advise.

tuboo August 27, 2008 17:25

Hi Mike
I agree with what you have said completely, it comes down to speaker & amplifier synergy to get the best from your audio system. Once you have the power amplifiers optimized with your speakers this will allow a natural ease & flow to the music. Speakers need to be controlled or damped properly for the best results & amplifiers need to operate with in their sweet spot or power band, especially when played at higher volume levels to keep the sound pure with out glare or distortion creeping in & hardening the sound.
This sounds like very basic advise plus very easy to achieve but you can chase your tail trying to achieve this audio system synergy, as most of us know!!
Well done Mike on your audio room construction and incredible audio system, I am sure it sounds wonderful.
Cheers Jason.

jasonparmenter August 25, 2008 19:42

when comparing how different types of amplifiers might sound on large, full range speakers; it should be noted that many people accept some limitations for other benefits. if one wants to put a pair of 18 watt Lamm ML2.1 on Wilson X-2's there will be some magic but also some compromises.....or one can purchase $20k+ worth of subwoofers and attempt to integrate them. there are many (all valid) ways to skin the cat.

when one puts low powered SET's on horns there are trade-offs. mega-amps on large difficult to drive speakers have trade-offs.

personally; i have found that the dart--MM3 is about as uncompromised an approach as there is between full range coherence and musical nuance and involvement. yesterday i listened to music for about 12 hours and was still enjoying it last night when i started to fall asleep.....

YMMV.

mikelavigne August 25, 2008 16:46

Tuboo; regarding the darTZeel compared to the 45 watt Accuphase; the best we could do is guess. however; i think that the dart would get closer to being linear trying to control a 15" ported woofer than a 45 watt SET. first; it is likely inherently more accurate in the deep bass than the SET and the main problem is always when things are not as accurate it multiplys the problem. this is why digital amps are so ideally suited to do deep bass. their somewhat sterile lack of character becomes an advantage in the bass.

anyway; John Atkinson did measure the dart at 160 watts into 8 ohms prior to clipping; so the dart is not 'just 100 watts anyway.

the MM3's do not use any servo; but with 2 15" powered woofer/subwoofers per speaker which happen to be pretty efficient the excursion for each driver is minimal and the sense of effortlessness is remarkable. again; getting fed a linear signal is paramount. the ICE based digital amp in the MM3's fed by the dart is a very neutral source for those 15" drivers. the sealed box is also a factor. could/would a servo improve things? the MM3's have a very simple crossover and are quite transparent and coherent; the added complexity of a servo circut might detract from the delicacy and nuance......but again i am guessing. the deep bass performance i now hear seems about perfect.

i recently switched from the EMM to the Playback Designs MPS-5. i look forward to someone doing a Puccini--Playback Designs comparison soon. like you; i'm a vinyl guy.....the Playback Designs gets closer to my Rockport than any previous digital i have heard.

mikelavigne August 25, 2008 14:05

Yes indeed a comparison between 45 watts class A opposed to 1Kw on class D seems to be somewhat out of line. ;-)
then again if we do a contest on 'baddest bass' any Genesis 1.1 owner would only smile reading our conversation..

it would be very interesting to compare the 45 watt Accuphase to the DartZeel.
and on my turn i would love to hook up a pair of Krell FPB 700 -or what do they offer at the moment- mono amplifiers to the Lohengrin, it * might* show nice and tight bass ;-)

does the MM3 have servo controlled bass btw?
in the meantime i'm saving up for the Dart combo, and keep an eye on the Dart monoblocks somewhere in 2009.
have seen that the Dart integrated may be ordered in all black finish too. sooo nice to see. At Munich highend on static display.

btw any EMM owner should give the new DCS Puccini a sincere listening. just amazing really.
i'm more into Vinyl.

tuboo August 25, 2008 13:16

Tuboo, I'm no speaker designer but I listen to a lot of opinions about speaker design from people in the biz/hobby. What I've been told is several things. One, in a ported design vs an enclosed one is a compromise for speed as ports help move air but also induces vibration and thus distortion. Its also cheaper to implement. Two, the misconception that woofers can fire any direction because you can't hear where those low soundwaves come from anyway. Well, that may be partly true but low level information should be phase coherent and time aligned when reaching your ears. So rear facing could never be "in sync" by that definition. That original timing difference of soundwave information including rerflections should be on your recording, and a system should not add to it.

I certainly agree with you on the important need for powering a subwoofer. And certainly 45, even class A, watts hardly seems up to the task. And compare that with 2 x 1000 class D watts for my 4 x 15" enclosed paper treated woofers may be a misplaced comparison. And on paper that in itself may explain a large part of the difference in bass performance that I clearly heard. Delicate hobby, this is ...

Btw, the room was not a show room, but a permanent, well treated, room at a very respected high-end dealer in Belgium.

mtkhl567 August 25, 2008 11:27

thanks for all replies.
we must take into account so many variables. the room dimensions itself, the acoustical behavior -has the room actually been acoustically measured- and ofcourse we do not listen to 'a speaker' we listen to a complete setup.
it is no hard job to get any top flight speaker sounding so so. we have had testimony of that fenomenon in Munich Highend show once again this year.
there were one brand demoes of gear costing maybe 200.000 euro, and although very impressive on spl and bass we got out of the demoe room within 5 minutes mumbling 'i don't want to sit here any longer'.
now these were indeed very respectable brands and have great reputation and it may only be for the room acoustics, the AC power and or ancilliary equipment that we experienced what we experienced.
there was one particular room with the Avalon Isis and the new Hovland gear which sounded sooo balanced.
but here we entered a fully acoustically treated room..
this demoe was one of few which really impressed us.
other Isis demoes turned out different.

so demo rooms have always to benefit of doubt concerning labelling and reviewing speakers on absolute terms.
it is in most cases an impression, no less no more.
we have fallen too many times in this trap, and too many times it turned out same speaker X sounding very different in another room.

The Lohengrin needs -no it craves- partnering with truly superb amps no less. but again that is hardly news for any great speaker.
to get the 15" woofers really doing their thing aint easy.
but when it happens with the right amp boy o boy they move air.

hereby a copy paste FAQ from the Verity website:

I like to have quick, tight and well-controlled bass.
Is it true that a large-diameter woofer like the one used in
the Lohengrin might be lacking speed?

A: It's been a misconception to think that because smaller woofers are quicker they sound better. What's important here is how quick you move the air. A larger cone travels less to displace the same amount of air. Therefore to displace the same air-volume, a 7.5-inch woofer will need to be 4 times quicker than a 15-inch woofer. The end result is the same except that the 15-inch woofer needs less speed and creates less distortion. A properly designed 15-inch woofer can be even relatively quicker if we speak about cubic-inch per second. The Lohengrin’s 15-inch woofer belongs to this category. Trying to achieve similar results by using a combination of multiple small-diameter woofers is generally a cheaper method packed with compromises.

tuboo August 25, 2008 07:43

I know there are many other considerations, as obviously I wasn't just listening and therefor comparing one speaker vs another. So more accurately put the Accuphase/Lohengrin vs Dart/MM3 especially on track number 13 (Its a Miracle) of Amused to Death by Roger Waters it was so abundantly clear that the base response of the three drum solo's at the end of the song were completely fouled up by the former setup. Sure room, the daad's in the corner (which were set at reflection not absorption!) etc have a role to play. But the rear firing woofers on that drum solo from the Lohengrin II just meant the deepest base piece was lost altogether. The upper base dynamics, depth and the speed of the Lohengrin was excellent though on that piece. Again those proprietary midranges are fantastic. And if you never heard that song before, you might think, hmmm excellent. That is until you hear how it is supposed to sound like, and then you come to the conclusion I came to above ... and that means it would probably do that on most lower octaves of all kinds of music. And for that 200,000 Euro pricetag imho is a shame. Btw, Julien himself set up that room...

mtkhl567 August 25, 2008 07:24

Henry, woofer orientation and 'ported or 'not ported' are two issues which do sometimes have issues. i'm no speaker designer or professional acoustitician......but in my personal observations these two issues can become problems depending on the room.

i never had any issues with bass coherence with the Von Schweikert VR9's i had.....which had rear firing subwoofers. however; they were a sealed box and there were front firing woofers which decended to 50hz. so the subs were mostly in frequecies which were uni-directional anyway and not as muscially significant as the woofer on the Lonhengrin.

my Kharma Exquisites had rear ports; which worked great in my old smaller room but had trouble getting traction (presurizing) my new, much larger, room.

it's also possible that the 45watt Accuphase lacked total deep bass control of the Lonhengrin and that non-lineararity came thru somewhat as a lack of coherence. there are a few variables there and hard to say what is causing what without investigating. until one has a coherent bass performance reference it's hard to know where you are going. when i hear the bass in my room and then hear it other places i appreciate my environment, my speakers, and their adjustability even more.

i do think the Lonhengrin is very capable of very satisfying, coherent, and correct bass performance when properly set up in a proper room.

mikelavigne August 24, 2008 15:24

Henry, thanks....i stayed up last night to watch the USA finally get the monkey off their back by winning the Gold.

the game was broadcast live on the Canadian channel, and started at 11:30pm here.

Spain played amazingly well and would have beaten anyone else easily. they shot over 51% and 47% from the 3-point line. but USA also played well and it was great watching USA stay so focused for 40 minutes.

i loved the intensity of the game....it was a classic and worth staying up for.

mikelavigne August 24, 2008 15:16

Before I forget, congrats on USA winning the gold against Spain in basketball. Not sure wether you were able to see or tape, but that game was worth watching every minute!!! :-)

mtkhl567 August 24, 2008 09:49

Mike, Tuboo, I heard the Lohengrin powered by an all Accuphase chain (A45/2810/DP800/DC801/VPI/Herron) with MIT cabling and some room treatment recently. I agree with Mike that the Lohengrin is a very fine speaker indeed, the in-house manufactured midrange and ribbon tweeter are truely exceptional pieces. Very fast midbase I remember. The only drawback were the backfiring woofers, resulting imho unacceptable phase/timing incoherence in low frequenies (noy sure what the x-over was set at). They were powered by 45 pure class A watts and that seemed to be sufficient in the appr. 60-70 sqm room with high ceilings. Verity is working on getting the sensitivity of the Lohengrin up to over 100db as Julien explained to me then.

Mike, between you and me, that session with Julien just put for me into perspective what an unbelievably fantastic speaker the MM3 is by comparison. And what great synergy the Dart/MM3 combo presents for the money.

Not that the Lohengrin/Accuphase didn't sound great, it sounded fantastic, everyone in the room was justifiably impressed (also with the EUR200,000+ price tag!) ... but it could not touch the Dart/MM3 for sheer musicality, disappearing act, tonal balance, clear soundstaging and palpability...

mtkhl567 August 24, 2008 09:47

Tuboo, you are welcome.

the Lohengrin is a speaker i could listen to all day. very musical and 'non-hifi'.

i would expect the Verity Lohengrin to be a very synergistic match with the darTZeel NHB-108 amplifier. a few years ago i heard the Lohengrins powered by the Tenor 75W OTL Monoblocks (my reference amps from 2001 to 2004) and thought it was an excellent match. if those OTL's could make the Lohengrin's sing the dart should be great.

the Lohengrin will even allow you to bi-amp with a set of two darts if you please (not that you need to).

i agree on the phono stage approach of the dart pre. very simple and elegant with world-class performance. my dart pre has two phono stages which i find to be very handy as i seem to be buying more tt's.

when you get a chance to try the darTZeel(s) in your system please post your experiences.

mikelavigne August 23, 2008 18:59

"at the end of the day i'm not really hankering for a different amp"

Well Mike you pulled me over the bridge now.
i'm saving up.
have a suspicious feeling the Dart's will bring out the best with the Lohengrin at 95dB and nominal 8 with deepest dip at 4.4 ohm.

yup have read all things avail at the website, thanks again.
yes those HP350 monoblocks will be interesting, but at 80K the admission price is indeed high.
take into account the 50 Ohm Dart to Zeel connection saves you another 10 to 15K+ on balanced ic lines too.
i love the retro thinking with phonostages built in, there seems to be a trend. think good phonostages don't need 30 pound boxes with separate powersupplies. nice to show off, but the Pure Simplicity and Reliability serves any phonostage well.

have listened only very briefly at the Munich highend show, but could not really experience due to show conditions.
we experienced 95% of all demoe's were not representative as to likely performance.
only very few did some room acoustics.

oops there goes a can of worms..

thanks alot Mike!

tuboo August 23, 2008 17:16

Tuboo, i did not specifically answer your question regarding considering other amps....sorry.

i would love to hear how the Tenor 350 Hybrid monoblocks would sound in my system......but the price is a bit much. also; i would lose the synergy i have between the dart amp and pre.

there are many amps which i would love to have sitting in my room to put into the system when the mood came over me......maybe a Kondo of some sort.....the ML3's......the big CAT monos (can't remember the specific model)....and some others (mostly tube amps).

at the end of the day i'm not really hankering for a different amp.....but i do appreciate the specialness of other amps.

mikelavigne August 23, 2008 15:44

hi Tuboo,

thanks for the kind comments.

i would relate my experience with the darts as somewhat like my vinyl experience. vinyl has so much information in the grooves that as you improve your vinyl playback system there seems to be no limit to getting closer to the original event. a better cartridge, better phono stage, better set-up.....it all adds up to more information and veils removed......less a sense of the reproduction chain. just music. anything in your vinyl front end that is colored or lacking naturalness gets exposed as detracting from the ultimate musical essense.

so far in my experience, the darTZeel amplifier (and the dart pre too) seem to be a neutral, natural, alive, and transparent compliment to my system. the dart has yet to be any kind of limitation to the music. the dart has no 'sound' or 'character' of it's own.....therefore i can maintain a neutral balance. there is no coloration of tubes yet there is that 'breath of life' and sweetness.....a natural and unprocessed nuance retained. the dart has the speed and extention of solid state without any sense of sterility and hardness that even the best other ss amps have to some slight degree.

the dart is very dynamic and articulate, and particularly microdynamically alive. it has that sense of energy and flow. but you never have a sense of the dart itself.....more that the music is alive. the dart can boggie and be a 'brute' (at least on my speakers and in my room) when the music calls for it......but it always brings that nuance and delicacy to music which mega amps can't seem to manage. the attraction of low powered and mid-powered amps is that sense of less processing of the musical message.....that's the dart.

every year i go to the various audio shows and listen to lots of amplifiers; many of which i like and could live with. so far i have not heard anything which has compelled me to consider changing. the dart continues to be a open window into the rest of my system performance.

there are more powerful amplifiers that are more effortless and in control with certain speakers. but even with somewhat tough speakers.....i personally would choose the attributes of the dart over other more powerful amps. on my 93db, 6 ohm Evolution Acoustics MM3's (where the bottom 2 octaves are internally powered) i cannot think of an amplifier i would prefer.

there are other great amplifiers out there. the only one i have heard that maybe is as good or better and still has the neutrality would be the mega-buck Tenor 350 Hybrid monoblocks.....at $90k. there are a few others which are not quite as strictly neutral but are none-the-less wonderful....like the Lamm ML2.1 and ML3 to name a couple.....which i like alot.

if/when Herve does the higher power dart mono's we'll see where that moves the reference.

i suggest that anyone who is curious about the dart to go to www.dartzeel.com and read Herve's white papers on his amplifier designs. the dart performance is no accident. Swiss design, top quality construction, the best parts, simpliest, shortest signal paths, and no compromises.

mikelavigne August 23, 2008 15:24

Compliments on this audiophile journey Mike.
it's a true pleasure to read all posts.
after all those great amplifiers it seems to me you really stick with the Swiss Darts isn't it..?
2009 will eventually bring monoblocks ive read somewhere.
after those initial raving experiences a long time ago when inserting the Darts, you must have found peace of mind.

could you once more describe your Dart experiences now they are serving you the music after so many years...?
i mean the long haul.
have you actually thought of inserting other amps yet again?

curious.

cheers, keep 'em spinning!

tuboo August 23, 2008 11:57

thanks Jazdoc for the kind words. your feedback is appreciated. thanks also for the new music you've turned me onto.

there are 30 more 45rpm 'Zepplin' discs in that set you still need to hear sometime. i look forward to our next session.

and thanks for hosting me at your place, i enjoyed your room and the new Gabilier Stelvio....quite the nice tt.

mikelavigne August 16, 2008 04:17

I had the pleasure of listening at Mike's last evening. Hard to believe but tweaking the speaker placement has made things sound even better! And yes, after hearing a few CD's, the Playback Designs CDP is the the real deal. It's not vinyl, but it captures more of the magic of an LP than other CDP I've heard. Of course the room and rest of the system ain't bad either!

The last thing we listened to was 45 rpm Zepplin's "In My Time of Dying" from Physical Grafitti. This is one of my favorite albums and it was an audiophile peak experience...John Bonham was in the room!

jazdoc August 14, 2008 14:59

Henry, yes.....new pictures are overdue....i'll try and do it this weekend.

i do turn off my Playback Designs MPS-5 as well as put the battery powered dart pre into 'charge-mode'. i leave on permanently the digital sub amps in my speakers, the dart amp, and the Rockport. i think the MPS-5 does improve slightly after about 30 minutes. i don't always turn off the MPS-5 but i found that my EMM Labs gear operated better when they were off when not in use once or twice a week so got in the habit of switching off my digital. likely i'm being over-cautious on the MPS-5......i think the Philips transport in the CDSD was the 'sensitive' item that needed a cool-down rest.....the Esoteric drive in the MPS-5 is probably fine being powered up 100% of the time.

when i go out of town i do power down the whole system. it takes about 12 hours for the system to sound optimal after complete power-down for a few days.

since i have A/C in my room the ambient temperature does stay in quite a narrow range (68-75 degrees) all the time, i think that too is significant for the overall sound of everything. electronics and particlarly all the structure and drivers of a speaker like constant temperature. i think that is why the MPS-5 reaches optimal pretty quick.

mikelavigne August 14, 2008 13:58

Mike, all those improvements... the "hairdryer" tweak, the MPS-5, the new MM3 position, reel-to-reel. Don't you think its time to update some of your pics? Would love, and I'm surely not alone, to see your latest and greatest!

Thanks for sharing your journey, and are you too leaving some of your gear on permanently? That's my most recent super tweak... I was listening to Lee Morgan's 1964 Search For The New Land recording. Fantastic Blue Note recording. So much more analog with all components at their operating temperature.

Enjoy!

mtkhl567 August 14, 2008 10:00

Fred, forgot to add that i agree on the Halcyonics being perfect for any of these vintage tt's. that is what i suggested to Albert.

mikelavigne August 13, 2008 18:11

Hi Fred,

thanks for trying the Acoustic Revive; i assume that was the RL-30.

was that Albert's Mk2 Panzer-wood? i'm also very much looking forward to finding out where these vintage tt's will end up performance wise compared to the Rockport.

hopefully the SP-10 Mk3 that i've purchased will be here soon. According to Albert and Steve Dobbins that is suppose to be the ultimate.

mikelavigne August 13, 2008 18:09

I was able to finally repeat your experience using the Acoustic Revive and did find that it enhanced the effect significantly.

On a separate front, I am very interested in your TT trials. I have heard the combination of the SP10 Mk 2/Panzer wood base, but not in my own system against the Rockport. I think that the combination might furher benefit from positioning on a Halcyonics isolation base.

fcrowder August 13, 2008 15:16

hi FF,

does there need to be method to madness?

from my perspective i can see my logic.....and i have gone down a few dead ends. but there is no map to guide me/us into this pursuit.

anyway; your comments were not taken in any sort of negative way. if i was worried about that i would not post about my audio journey. i just felt like responding.....and sometimes i think my posts are my attempt to speak to myself.

i have heard the Alexandria 2.2.....although only at a local dealer and not with gear to my tastes. a very good, if overpriced, speaker.....and certainly the best of the Wilson's i have heard.

i think with the right amp and set-up it can be very special. they do not tempt me to change from my speakers.....even if the price was similar. maybe if i heard them in a set-up like OB's i might feel differently.

i own 4 reel to reels.....and i've been listening to my Technics RS-1700 modified by Tim deParavincini playing some of 'The Tape Project' tapes. pretty damn nice.....maybe amazingly nice.....more comments later on that.

enjoy your Stellavox.....and i have not problem with you buying the next round.

mikelavigne August 13, 2008 13:21