"Even more awkward if that player would be one third of the other's retail price too..."

Mtkhl567... at the last shootout, I wanted to play a joke on Alex and announce a winner to the shootout, and behind the veil, we would produce a portable CD player (Optimus 3400). But the host didn't have such a player handy.

-Gary

ggil June 06, 2008 01:01

Henry,

one clarification; the DAC in the Playback Designs has an open architecture; it can be 1 bit-5.6mhz or 32 bit-196mhz, 72 bit-496 mhz or anything they want it to be. thru the USB port the software can be updated to whatever they want.

algorithms can be updated.

so it is not correct to catagorize it in any way.

oh, and congrats on being 'on the list'....you won't regret it.

mikelavigne June 05, 2008 15:27

Mike, don't worry, I'm on JT's list... just obviously can't get a sense of performance if not listened & compared myself. I'll probably fly over to Barry when he gets his. But the barn where this stallion comes from is obviously a good indicator!

mtkhl567 June 05, 2008 14:07

Henry,

the CDSA is not quite as good as the EMM SE combo (the CDSA converts everything to PCM)....but not big differences. OTOH the MPS-5 is in a different league altogether from the EMM SE level in every way.....a quantum leap.

it will be interesting to see how comparisons go as others are beginning to recieve their MPS-5's now. i will be surprised if anything is even close to the same ballpark. but i've been surprised before.

mikelavigne June 05, 2008 12:41

Mike, et all, both players are at the top of their game. At that level its about subtle nuances and likely at best very subjective preferences. 24bit vs 32bit DAC architecture, VDRS NEO vs VDRS drive, tube vs solid state, $10k vs $30k.

I remember in a prior shootout the CDSA came in close second after the NOW2.5T. The MPS 5 is allegedly MUCH better than the CDSA, so has the gap closed or could it even dethrone the NOW3.0GO? My bet is that the value of the MPS 5 is absolutely irresistible, unless you don't own a decent pre-amp...

mtkhl567 June 05, 2008 09:42

Ok, after sitting here thinking about this, i've done a 180.

not that Alex would want to; but if he wants to come and bring his mega player, whatever that is; my door would be open.

i am either open or i'm not.

if i take any other position, then later if i innocently allow another manufacturer to bring something over i'll be a hypocrite. and i just don't want to worry about who and when. it's all good.

no one called me or e-mailed me one way or another on this issue. i guess i needed to consider it from all aspects and being open to whatever is the greater good.

sorry to be wishy washy about this; i suppose it's not that big a deal in any case.

mikelavigne June 05, 2008 04:44

Greg, i forgot to add you would always be welcome and bring any gear you want to try in my system. that is what i enjoy doing.

mikelavigne June 05, 2008 03:19

Greg,

don't worry about it. i could have ingnored the issue if i wanted. as i mentioned; i had the same thought. the suggestion was inevitable.

my response was fully considered. i know there is always a 'competition' aspect to what component might be best at any particular moment.....even if i or others deny it you can't keep human nature down. but it's important to keep it on a hobby basis and not get into the business aspect if possible. at least as best we can.

mikelavigne June 05, 2008 03:15

Microstrip; the other product that RPG mentioned to me was the Hemiffusor which they brought up because my initial call to them had to do with me wanting a Skyline made from wood. they said it came the closest to what the Skyline did but it was not as effective at higher frequencies.

i seriously considered having a carpenter make the Skyline panels from wood to match my walls. i eventually decided against that due to how much it would weigh and a much more challenging mounting dilema.

mikelavigne June 05, 2008 00:05

Microstrip; i did consult with RPG regarding my application. my room already contains lots of diffusion built in for the sides where diffractal and QRD 734 are typically used. my application was behind my speakers in the middle of my large curved diffuser. here i am only dealing with mid and high frequencies, and according to RPG, the Skyline is unsurpased in those specific frequencies.

i had a friend loan me his RPG Skyline panel with 2 mounted vertically and it was a wonderful improvement. the difference is that i will have 3 and 1/2 panels (84 inches by 24 inches) instead of the 2 panel (24 inches by 48 inches).

mikelavigne June 04, 2008 23:44

Although, as you say, everything has been so crazy for the last few weeks, the room is still the thing! Can I ask why you are choosing the RPG skylines and not the Diffractal or QRD 734?

microstrip June 04, 2008 23:15

Sorry Mike. I did not intend to "throw chum in the water" to stir another debate on Alex. He no doubt is a gifted tweaker/modifier in the finest tradition of audio. There is no reason why Alex could not pay you a visit with his cd player. (perhaps I could invite myself)No shoot out would be required. Informal opinions would be welcome.
Is it necessarily a forgone conclusion Alex will declare his machine the best? Even if he does it would just be his opinion. I am sure he could buy his own Meitner, etc. and conduct his own shootout.

gregadd June 04, 2008 21:30

"...But your point is well taken. It would be awkward to compare two products with the mfg. present, especially if the results came out in favor of the other brand..."

Even more awkward if that player would be one third of the other's retail price too...

mtkhl567 June 04, 2008 18:49

Hi Mike, your new Playback Designs player looks very interesting. I hope to have an opportunity to listen to one in the near future.

Regarding Alex Peychev being present during a listening session, you said...

>>i think for usefull feedback to people his influence and spin of what would occur would not be helpful. that is just my opinion.<<

I have been at two different lengthy shootouts or listening sessions when Alex is present, and I can tell you, Alex has graciously removed himself from the listening room and did not participate in the comparisons so he did NOT influence or spin the opinion of the participants.

That's not to say Alex isn't passionate about what he hears. He absolutely is! And when the listening sessions are over, Alex pipes up and lets his opinion be heard. But Alex will chime in no matter whose equipment we are listening to, whether it's his own design or not. That's one thing about Alex is you never have to wonder what he is thinking because he flat out tells you. :)

The last listening session we compared his APL 3.0GO to a nice vinyl rig, once the session was over, Alex was very opinionated about which cartridges and cabling sounded better. And universally, everyone was in agreement. And this had nothing to do with his APL player.

But your point is well taken. It would be awkward to compare two products with the mfg. present, especially if the results came out in favor of the other brand.

Thanks again for sharing your impressions of your new player.

Gary

ggil June 04, 2008 16:52

Oregon, thanks. last week a friend mentioned he saw that in Brian Taylor's letter in Stereophile. the best part was being mentioned along side Winston Ma.....one of my audio mentors.

mikelavigne June 04, 2008 13:34

Stereotaipei; thanks for the feedback on the APL amp verses the dart. i will be interested in your final verdict. as you don't use the dart pre i am curious how that changes the equation of the dart's performance.

mikelavigne June 04, 2008 13:27

Stereotaipei; i did not mean to infer that the DV-60 might have been an APL modded one; my friend does not remember who modded it as he purchased it from the original owner who had had it modded. it had no identifying label on the front. my point of mentioning it was just to point out the degree of difference that jumped out.

a couple of years ago i had the $65k 5-box Esoteric system in my room here and frankly; i did not enjoy it. i have had the DV-50 in my old room and while i thought it was an excellent value for the money it was not my cup of tea. i think that Esoteric makes great products (a version of the Esoteric VDRS disc drive is in the Playback Designs) my perception of their 'sound' has not been one i would choose. to be fair; i have not spent lots of time listening critically to the most recent top of the line Esoteric so my comments only have to do with earlier models. the DV-60 i heard last night did not really sound like my perception of the Esoteric 'sound'.

regarding Alex; he is a force of nature. i enjoy his company. but i think for usefull feedback to people his influence and spin of what would occur would not be helpful. that is just my opinion. i'm not here to have other manufacturers do comparisons with the Playback Designs; and i'm not just picking on Alex.

OTOH i would enjoy anyone (any gear owner) to bring over anything they would like to compare. that helps me to gain knowledge and it's fun.

mikelavigne June 04, 2008 13:18

Hi Robert,

regarding the MM2 upgrade; the last few weeks since i got it back from the MM2 upgrade have been so crazy (the tweak, a recording session, VSAC, and the new Playback Designs) that i've not had a chance to do any critical listening focused on that variable. i'm also about to install the full length RPG Skyline panels in the middle of my front diffuser panel between my speakers.

isn't that always the way things go. nothing changes and then everything happens at once.

i have a sense of what i think is different. the new MM2 seems much more open on top and the noise-floor is lower. the bass is even quicker and more articulate. even better top to bottom coherence. but those are just feelings and not to be trusted. i have a friend with the regular MM Opus speaker cables (my old second set) which he will bring by for a bit more objective view. on my Opus MM2 interconnect i'll just use my Valhalla here which i already know how that compared to the pre-MM2 conversion.

factoring the change of cables into my listening has been a concern. as Ted's write-up mentioned; we switched cables between the Playback Designs and the EMM to make sure that was not a factor. last night we used the Valhalla on the Esoteric. the differences were so profound that it was not necessary to even mess with that.

anyway; i will get to this as soon as i can.

mikelavigne June 04, 2008 12:57

Hi Mike,I would be interested in your opinion of the Opus MM2 when you get around to it.All the best.

Robert

strapper211 June 04, 2008 11:14

well, there may be a difference between an Esoteric "modded by someone" and an APL 3.0, where all electronics is changed. I personally never liked the Esoteric sound, and have no complaints on the 3.0GO... which sounds for me much better than EMM, but would be curious to hear if your new CD player can beat it.
Even if Alex is enthusiastic about his own product, it is not much different from Jonathan pushing his own product line... I don't believe it would prevent you from building your own judgment: just ask him to get out of the room when you are listening :-)
Btw, I heard also the new amp of APL against my Dart (with the MM3). Cannot have a definitive judgment as I have only 10 hours on it, but so far I still prefer the Dart: more tri dimensional. Will give a final verdict in a few months after break in.

stereotaipei June 04, 2008 09:21

Gregadd,

interesting you said that.....as after i posted my comment that thought crossed my mind. Alex is a great guy who is understandably passionate about his products.

Alex would be welcome to come visit anytime 'as a friend' which i consider him to be......but doing a head to head comparison with an APL NWO 3.0GO would have to be with a owner/consumer of that product and without creators of the products. too much unavoidable agenda (not that Alex would be any different than any other manufacturer in his feelings).

my agenda is knowledge and fun.

btw; tonight a friend brought over a 'modified by someone'......he did not know who.....Esoteric DV-60. my friend thinks highly of his player and i like it too.

we allowed the Esoteric to warm up for an hour; then put a disc on the Esoteric, and a second identical CD on the Playback Designs.

we listened to the Esoteric for about a minute.....i then switched to the Playback Designs.....in about 5 seconds he got a big grin and turned and shook his head; "we don't need to listen any more, you were right Mike". i insisted we play it longer and we then switched it back and forth one more time.

mikelavigne June 04, 2008 06:15

"...including the APO NW0 3.0GO, that i've not heard that would be interesting to compare with the Playback Designs in my system..."
Alex is in his car headed your way. See Mike it never pays to think out loud.

gregadd June 04, 2008 01:02

Mike,
You are mentioned in the current Stereophile!
Very cool!

oregon June 04, 2008 00:48

Stereotaipei,

i hope things are good with you.

there are a few highly thought of digital players out there; including the APO NW0 3.0GO, that i've not heard that would be interesting to compare with the Playback Designs in my system.

you know me; i am always game to try something in my system. if it happens i will share my perceptions.

you need to hear this.

mikelavigne June 03, 2008 00:26

I am waiting for a comparison between the APL NWO3.0GO and the MPS-5...

stereotaipei June 02, 2008 21:47