Hi Mike,
Nice to see you back...

I am still enjoying a lot my MM3... thanks for the listening session one year ago!
Given your perpetual quest for perfection, I think you should give a listening to the APL NWO3.0GO. I upgraded 3 months ago my CD player from 2.5 to 3.0: I have to say this is a completely different animal! never heard something so close to analog sources.... so natural, so dynamic and so detailed at the same time. You can listen to it for hours w/o fatigue... and you are hearing things you never heard before on your favorite records... For me at least it is a real breakthrough product. I strongly encourage you to go for a listening session... on your system (you may change your opinion on CD players with tube output, who knows!). If you do the test, it has to be the 3.0. Previous version are completely different.

Another interesting development is I just bought an APL UA-S1 hybrid amp (completely blind). $5000 but it may end up replacing my Dartzeel... Nothing I have to complain about the Dart, but I was curious!... and if I still prefer the Dart I will use the APL in my second system. I am now traveling abroad so didn't have time to do the comparison yet, will keep you posted if you are interested. Only thing I can say in the meantime is that I know one guy who sold his Dart when he bought the APL... and another one who replaced his $35k Edge monoblocks... intriguing enough to try it myself!
cheers

stereotaipei May 01, 2008 11:03

I'm finished Mike...no stone left unturned. Feel free to trash my thread. When you put it out here Mike it is public domain and free for comment. I am sure that what you are posting about is absolutely wonderful. Just premature IMO to put out on public forum.

oneobgyn May 01, 2008 04:54

thanks OB.....are you sure you are finished? maybe you could expand on that a bit? must be a stone left unturned someplace?

....and i'll come over and trash you on your thread on the first post you make on your thread after an 8 month absence.

now i remember why i didn't post for 8 months....how silly of me to forget.

mikelavigne May 01, 2008 04:51

Things are great Mike

Just seems a little unreasonable to post in such a fashion about something that isn't available yet but according to you is something that is a must in all of your systems. Tantamount to something like insider trading. IMo it would be more appropriate to post about a tweak which is commercially available,one that you have used and one that you would recommend. Seems to me that everything but the initial premise is practised. I do disagree that you post about something that you are using and are now claiming to be something that we should all be using. I just would have expected better Mike. I know you to be zealous in this hobby but I just disagree with the manner of your post. Sorry Mike...perhaps many will agree with you but to post in a solicitous fashion is nothing that I condone.

oneobgyn May 01, 2008 04:43

OB....sorry....i guess i can see how you might feel that way.

i'm not the only guy out there testing this tweak. i've kept (relatively) quiet for almost 2 months. i'm excited.....damn excited and i just wanted to share in anticipation of this going public. when you do read about this in the quite near future rest assured that this is the real deal and will make all our software better.

anyway....i hope all is well with you too......

mikelavigne May 01, 2008 04:30

OK Mike...I'll bite

seems like you are trying to dangle a carrot in front of we donkeys.

Somewhat unreasonable I would suggest to make claims with a "stay tuned" follow-up. Just my $0.02

oneobgyn May 01, 2008 04:06

i'm listening to Nat King Cole on the DCC Lp reissue of 'The Very Thought of You'......Nat is soooo real i just had to share......this seemed as good a moment as any to get back into my system page.

My vinyl front end is the same as last year (for now) but i have been playing with a wonderful tweak which is applied to CD's, SACD's, Lp's and even DVD's......any spinning disc you can put in your hand. I have been beta-testing this tweak for about 6 weeks now and i think it will be a game-changing benefit to all us music lovers. it takes less than a minute to treat any disc and then you will get very significant sonic benefits; consistently lowered noise floor and increase in naturalness; significantly increased bass dynamics and texture; and expansion of the ambient information. the degree of effect does vary from significant to staggering from disc to disc.....and the effect is temporary.....sometimes not holding for the entire disc. the methodology has evolved since my initial beta test to my current process. the evolution mostly involved efforts to increase the effect and sustain it longer.

i only know how it affects things in my system so it could have less or more effect in other systems.....but i suspect the only varible is that the greater the system resolution and refinement the better the payoff.

i have had a few trusted friends over to hear this tweak and 'all' have percieved the same effect that i did.

the bad news is that i'm not permitted 'yet' to speak about how this works......as i have given my promise. the good news is that it is not expensive, complicated or difficult to use. i think a product or two are being developed for this.

i have always been a 'tweak' guy......i have lots of products and machines that clean, polish, de-mag, and a myriad of other things to my over 12,000 pieces of software. these all have some (mostly) positive affect on the sound.....but.....never enough of a effect to cause me to religiously use them. in fact; i almost never use the 'cabinet full of' tweaks.

I USE THIS NEW TWEAK EVERY DAMN TIME.....and you will too i suspect.

be prepared to have your world rocked.....no matter digital or analog.....tubes or solid state.....horns, ribbons or cones.

anyway; getting back to Nat.....he is more than a voice.....he has a body and presence that's spooky. the strings are real too.....not shrill or bright.....but rich and vibrant.

mikelavigne May 01, 2008 03:46

Hello,

Fantastic system, I'm surprised no one has written in about it since OCT???
what happened?
G

grandizer33 March 07, 2008 16:11

Hey Mike,

Shawn here in Bellevue. Always wanted to stop by and see/listen to your system sometime. I am a big Cary fan and use their Mono amps at this time, CoIncedent Super Eclipse II speakers along with a Cary 303/300 CDP.

However, over the last year or so got introduced to our resident Preamp genius extroidinar, Emmanuel Go of First Sound preamp fame and was wondering if you have ever comparied or tried out any of his masterpieces before? I bought one of his preamps a few months ago and I have been astonished every since. He really has figured out how to put together the finest Preamps technically possible with regards to extremely low noise floor and astonishing accurate instrument voicing. It would be a very interesting evaluation to compare a few of his premaps to the DarTzeel preamp and any other passive preamp you may have. I know Emmanuel started out making passive preamps from the beginning 15+ years ago and now has some of the most unbelievable active-true dual mono premaps available at any cost. Since he is in the Seattle area you should really try one out sometime. I think you would be very surprised.

Anyway, my system is not close to the system and room you have together however, after a few years of playing around with different amps and preamps, speakers and CDPs, and 21 years in the "hobby" the Cary mono's driving the CoIncident super eclipse speakers which are really made and designed for tube amps is a match made in heaven. Adding the First Sound preamp really has elevated the performance beyond what I would have thought possible.

I loved using a Cary preamp with the Cary amps however, after listening to what was possible with regards to ultra low noise floor with jaw dropping instrument voicing and imaging I was sold within the first few hours of listening to these amazing preamps. Amazing too that the man is right here in Renton as well! :)

Hope to see you around town sometime...
Shawn

jadevision November 01, 2007 00:28

Matt,
I am using EA power cords with integrated power filter. Read a few pages above in the same thread, we shared a lot on advantages of different power conditioning options.

Regarding the APL NWO2.5T, see the "APL NWO-2.5T A Review of a Classic CD Player" thread on Audiogon. There is also a thread with a blind test comparison of the APL against a few others top players (including EMM, DCS...): "Blind Shoot-out in San Diego -- 5 CD Players"

stereotaipei October 31, 2007 07:40

Great, thanks! I already E-mailed him.

My power isn't bad at all. But I still feel as if I need to put something on it to protect it from evil humors and bad lightning thingies that will never really happen... :-)

I can't wait to hear the MM3's!

-Matt

mattnshilp October 30, 2007 01:29

Matt, the gentleman goes by the name of Barry Konigsberg and here is his weblink:

http://www.transparentmusic.net/

Other than the Jena Labs powercords I've never felt the need for additional power conditioning. But then again I did not live in a power grid "dirty" area. Look at some other MM3/Dart/Emm combo owners on the Gon and they will have more elaborate conditioning systems.

Good luck & be prepared to be amazed when auditioning this combo...

Henry

mtkhl567 October 29, 2007 21:30

Thanks Stereotaupei! And yes, it killed me to disburse my reference system. But it would have killed me more to look at the gear sitting in boxes for years in my basement...

I am going to take a listen to the MM3's when I get a moment. Apparantly there is a gentlemen/Dealer in Pennsylvania who has a pair set up with the Dart/Emm gear on demo. I'd love to hear them...

I seam to have lost his contact info. If anyone knows this guy and can send me his contact info that would be great!

Also, I am not familiar with the APL NWO2.5T player. Would you mind posting or sending me a link to check it out?

I am typically a fan of gain in my pre-amp stage but if the digital out has enough gain of it's own, or the amp is a bit more sensitive then sometimes skipping the pre- can sound great... And it certainly would save a few pennies...

What are most of the MM3/Dart/Emm systems using for power conditioning?

Happy listening.

-Matt

mattnshilp October 29, 2007 03:24

FWIW I tried the EA double run speaker cables in my previous system (SF Stradivari, ML 33H/32) and did a/b with the Nordost Valhalla's. The EA cables which only had about 200 hours burnin on them sounded already better than the Valhalla's (they really need 700 hours). We used the Cisco gold CD with Gary Carr on double base and Harmon Lewis on organ. The double base sounded more real, superb timbre, with the EA cables, the organ had noticably more space and the deeper tones by both instruments were more clearly defined. Gary Carr's breathing had gained in detail and structure. The EA cables are also significantly cheaper than the Valhalla's...so this was a no brainer to me.

mtkhl567 October 26, 2007 13:48

Stereotaipei,
I compared the Evolution Acoustics speaker cables to a couple of world class cables and the EA's were far superior. They do need lots of break in to really hear the magic.

bkonig October 25, 2007 01:54

for those looking for a chair-http://www.takemiselectwholesaleoutlet.com/

gregadd October 25, 2007 01:53

Matt,
Mike decided to keep the MM3.
Agree that the EMM-Dart-MM3 configuration seems quite standard on Audiogon. Actually it is quite surprising, that would imply most people buy the full system with Jonathan and don't upgrade just loudspeakers.
I am the only one who went for an APL NWO2.5T player instead of EMM and skipped the Dart pre (direct connection works better with the NWO, I know cases of people who sold their Dart pre on Audiogon when they received the NWO player).
I chose the Dart as it was already one of my favorite amp even before listening to the MM3. I chose the EA cables without listening to anything else: got positive feedback and I find listening to cables too boring to spend time on it. Don't know if other combinations of cable may work better.

PS: that must be painful to sell such a good system!

stereotaipei October 24, 2007 10:38

I thought your schweikerts would surely be in by now. Have you decided to keep the MM3's?

I seam to be seeing more and more systems with that simple combo: EmmLabs, DartZeel (Pre and amp), and E.A. MM3's, Dart interconnects and E.A. speaker wire.

It almost sounds like a no-brainer. Add turntable of choice, mix in a nice arm and cartridge and put it in a good room and it's a prescription for success...

-Matt

PS - Talk about full circle. I thought for sure that when I built my new home, I'd have ample room for a dedicated listening room. Well, there is... But it will be in the basement, which won't be finished for a few more years. And I have NO WHERE else to put my current system (Talon, VAC, Tenor Audio, Teres Audio TT, etc.). So I sold the whole damn thing except the turntable and TriVista SACD player and I'll be using a recently acquired TriVista Integrated amp along with the SACD and a pair of Aerial Acoustics Model 10T's in the family room with my Teres Audio table to keep me going. Sigh... Not that the TriVista/10T combo will be bad. In fact, it is quite musical. But nothing close to my reference system...

mattnshilp October 24, 2007 02:03

Mike, a personal thanks to you from me and my wife for having shared all your knowledge and experience on this and your other threads. All those are a testament to what a great person you are and the passion that you have for music and music reproduction.

My dream has come true and when I think back at when I started this journey back in late 2003 in Bonn, Germany, I couldn't have believed what I ended up with today really existed. Amongst others, you, Jonathan, Alvin and Barry are in my audiophile best friends list for life.

We've started a vinyl collection, with the GPA tt and about 150 LPs this week and can't wait to experience more of the analogue world. We're packing up tomorrow to return to Europe next week. If you ever get the chance you're more than welcome.

Your audiophile friend,
Henry

mtkhl567 October 14, 2007 16:46

Yes, the professional speed used to be 30ips for the best quality masters, which were typically on 1/2 inch stereo tapes (not 1/4 inch). With the advent of noise reduction systems (Dolby et al), the common speed became 15ips (on 1/4 inch), in order to reduce costs (for the clients). But if no noise reduction was used, it would have been 30ips. The main problem with tapes from those days is that the backing deteriorated within a few years, and if you have tapes that are damaged (I would imagine most of them are, by now), they will likely get stuck in the machine when played. On the other hand, if you can find tapes in new condition, they might sound very good, that's true. Just don't expect to hold on to them for many years.
I'm not sure about the "magic" of cassette tape; it was the worst quality you could find at the time (hiss, narrow frequency response, etc). Recordings made at less than 15ips were often not much better.
Have fun.

jfd01 October 01, 2007 15:43

A late "thank you" to Mike for being a GRACIOUS host to a bunch of audio foos from Oregon.
Mike invited us, (or did we invite ourselves?) to go up to his crib for a drink and some music. In short, we are astounded by the music which flowed in his room. We were there, Mike and some of his buddies were there, and everytime we threw another LP or CD on, the music was there!
A true world class system.
He allowed us free rein to play anything we wanted to hear, gave us the best seats in the house, made us very comfortable, in short it was hard to leave.
The man is a class act.
Best regards,
Audiofoos of Oregon.

oregon September 29, 2007 17:53

The faster professional use speeds back then, 15ips and 30 ips, were also used to reduce wow and flutter and increase frequency response. Stan

talon4 September 28, 2007 12:49

Hello all, I started getting into audio in the early and mid 1970's. My friends and I would buy an album and record it on cassette for playback on our car stereos. I always heard that the desired speeds for (homeuse) playback reel-to-reel back then were 7.5ips and 15ips. The cassette, at 1 7/8ips, wasn't even considered high quality. It also had limited frequency response. I also heard that back then recording studios were recording at 15ips or 30ips. IPS is inches per second. Jfd01 is correct, from what I was told back then that: the faster the tape, the more information is laid down on tape. I sure do miss those analog days. Best regards, Stan

talon4 September 28, 2007 12:28

Mike; on the subject of tape, you don't want to buy anything slower than 15fps. The faster speeds were always used for higher quality results. There's a simple reason to it: more space used on the tape means more information stored on it. Just my 2 cents...
Joel

jfd01 September 28, 2007 00:06

hello mike

can you send me a short answer to this e-mail so i can send you some pics of my finally finished listening room ?...

roland
belgium

rolandus September 22, 2007 09:37