JF, WOW!!

i have read your post twice now (some parts five times). my brain hurts. i will go have breakfast....and come back and read it again.

thankyou for the insights into these issues.

i don't know how the filter/conditioners in the Jena Labs power cables work. i looked at the web site and there was no specific info. the Fundamental One cables have the same sort of filter/conditioner that her top-of-line full blown multi-input conditioner has.

my recollection from previous discussions with Jennifer Crock regarding her power conditioners and these power cables was that the filters did absorb 'noise' but also offer a 'brick wall' of sorts. my experience has been that they seem to really reduce system noise particularly well.

stepping back from your comments and attempting to see the 'big picture' here; it seems you are saying that if a filter just bounces the hash back into the system that that is bad. however; if the Jena Labs power cables actually do prevent hash from radiating from the gear itself into the grid and absorb a fair amount of noise while also containing it then that is good. if then we have a filter at the transformer which is reflecting noise back to the 'street' but there is no (or very little) noise being created by the system; then that is ideal (assuming that the system is balanced for a proper low noise environment).

also; that cables should be as neutral as possible (always my goal) and that digital systems (in my case both EMM boxes and the ICE amps in the MM3's) should be as isolated as possible (hopefully the Jena's).

how close did i come to what you intended to communicate?

mikelavigne April 08, 2007 16:46

Mike,
thanks for your answer. It is strange, I cannot find the Oyaide R1 on their website, and they write that the WPC-Z can be used only with the SWO serie.
Watch here:
http://www.oyaide.com/e_audio/audio_products_files/wpc-xxx.htm
I checked also the japanese website, same products, no R1. It seems that they haven't updated yet their website (did a search on the net and seems that the R1 is very recent). Will have to call them to ask price in Japan

stereotaipei April 08, 2007 15:57

Mike,
Some more thoughts on the use of a transformer / network power filter…
1) Regarding your question on the number of phases: if you see two wires coming on the main breaker, you are single phase. If you see 3 wires (2 phases and one ground), you are bi-phase. The formulas for apparent power calculation change depending on the number of phases… You should check with your electrician, it would be safer (but you have plenty of margin anyway, even if the available power with mono phase will be lower than my calculation for 3 phases…).
If dimensioned properly, there is no risk of limitation of dynamic (as the internal resistance of the power network, i.e. the 50Hz side of the filter is too small). Nevertheless, regarding your question if there is a sweet spot in term of power, actually there is another criteria to take into account: the filtering capability can be reduced when a network filter is driven at the limit of its current capacity: in fact, you can then have a saturation of the ferrite used in the filter. So you will not lose in dynamic, but in filtering. As a consequence, I suggest you keep a safety margin. If you consume max 6kVA, take a 7.5kVA…

2) The way the filter works in the transformer is not to eliminate the HF parasite, but to filter it out. That means HF parasites from the network are sent back to the network… but also HF coming from your audio equipment are also sent back to the audio equipment…
Without network filter, the audio equipments see the network as a very low impedance circuit. Therefore the parasites generated by your equipment (e.g., by digital circuits, HF-generators or power supplies) are sent back towards the main power supply, and eliminated passing through the low-resistance power network (parasite see the upstream network like a short circuit, as the network resistance is around 0.1 Ohm).
With a power network filter, the HF parasites (typically from 500Hz to 30 000Hz) generated by the equipment see upstream the high impedance of the filter, and they will therefore be stored and accumulated downstream of the filter.
These explanations have a few consequences:
- if you clean up your system from all RF parasites, it will sounds sweeter, less harsh. A lot of people say then that it sounds ‘less dynamic” because they were compensating the too harsh sound characteristic of their system with cable chosen to smoothen the sound (e.g., with less extension in the highs). Now that they eliminate the HF parasite, the system gets over-compensated and appears not enough dynamic! They should change their set of cable…
- If the parasites generated by the equipments are higher than the parasites generated by the network, the use of a power filter may degrade sound quality
- the use of AC power filters with tube amplifiers is even more problematic. Typically the high-voltage power supply of tubes amps generate much more HF parasite than for transistor amps. You don’t want to keep these parasites in your system…
- It may be recommended to use different AC circuits for digital and analog equipments. That what I would certainly do (as digital equipment generate much more HF than analog (except for tubes amp). Check what is the case of your Rockport motor: probably to be put with digital.
- The power cable needs to be carefully chosen when you use a power filter. A power cable doesn’t have a “sound” by itself (not the same as component or speaker cable, where for example the skin effect can have a big impact): When people say that power cables sound different, these difference come from the presence or not of HF parasites (btw, in some cases people would prefer a signal with distortion as it is perceived as with an higher SPL by the brain…). Typically, one should chose power cables with a very low resistance (to avoid difference of potential for different equipments connected on the same network). It should also have limited bandwidth when you use a AC main filter, i.e. it should have absorbing capabilities for HF frequencies. You don’t want to have HF being stored in your system, they should be filtered out by the cables. This is achieved by using capacitive or inductive cable, for example with ferrite to generate losses through demagnetization and therefore to transform HF parasite in heat. In your case, I would have such a “absorbing” cable from the main breaker to the room: you would have enough length to eliminate in heat parasites generated by your equipments…
- I don’t know what will happen when using a main filter with your Jena power cable: I don’t know how they work, but I remember you told me they have an integrated filter. Does it mean that parasites are trapped between equipment and the box on the Jena (I hope the cable has "absorbing" characteristics, to transform these parasite in heat rather than accumulating them…), and that therefore they will never go back up to the main filter? It looks like an overkill, two filters in a row (if the Jena are really good, you shouldn’t see an improvement)… but you may say that the power cables isolate equipments from parasites of other equipments, and the main filter provide an additional filter for parasites coming from main network?
Interesting…
PS: I give you another idea of further improvement: have you played with position of your rack to position it in a place with low pressure level and therefore limit the airborne vibrations? The quest will never stop…

stereotaipei April 08, 2007 15:05

JF,

the faceplate is correct; WPC-Z. USA list price $199.

the only model designation on the outlet is "R1" and then "Beryllium" written below. then on the end flap is the bar code and "Oyaide R1" with "Made In Japan" below.

on the back it says;

Feature
*polished beryllium copper
*paladium on platinum plating contact
*heavy duty triple-wipe contacts
*body made of PBT with glass filler
*24k brass plated brass band

the outlet is white in color.

the USA list price for the outlet is $129.

i hope that helps.

mikelavigne April 08, 2007 15:04

Mike,
I m just checking the price in Japan for the Oyaide (they are done here, so for once it should be cheaper in Tokyo!).
The WPC-Z costs Y13440, i.e. USD110

The SWO-XXX costs Y6216, i.e. USD50

Can you confirm it is the same as what you bought?

stereotaipei April 08, 2007 08:40

JF, there are twin, connected 70 amp circut breakers at the panel in my garage.....is that 1-phase or 2-phase?

in any case; i have decided to go with the 7.5kVW MGE/Topaz transformer. i had been recommended the Equi=Tech 10kVW Wall Cabinet system again yesterday by a very trusted friend......but at close to $10k and a beast (350 pounds and huge) to install i figure i can always try it later (or even another larger stand-alone transformer) if i want.

thanks Frank and JF for your explanations.

i will report back after it's installed. i am hoping that it will somehow yield results on the same level as the Oyaide outlets (which continue to amaze me). it's possible that since i'm out in the sticks and have a pretty robust power grid that i don't need much isolation (as had been already suggested).

if it does make a large difference it will be very difficult to get anything done at all except listening. for the life of me; it is hard to imagine that there may be another significant level left to improve (my ears tell me there can't be) in noise floor and additional dynamics (but my brain tells me there likely is).

mikelavigne April 08, 2007 04:16

Mike,
you say you have a bi-phase and in a previous email triphase 220V. the most common are 3 phase and single-phase power supply. I assume here that you have a tri-phase 220V (the main breaker has 3 phases connected + one earth connection). In this case, you get 127V when measuring power between one phase and the neutral and 220V between 2 phases (and therefore you power your audio equipment with 127V, not 220V as you select one phase and one neutral)

When you write you have a 70A circuit, that means that if the power consumption >70A, the circuit breaker (or the fuse) will put itself in default (will burn). The rule is therefore that the specs of the line (determined by Ampere rating of protection and diameter of cable used) needs to be always higher than the max power consumption of your equipment.
In your case, assuming the transformer is connected using 3 phases (I don't see it on the doc), the maximum apparent power consumption at the exit on your network is S= 3xUxI= 1.73xVligne x I=26kVA. So you should typically have a transformer<20kVA. This formula will change depending how you connect your transformer (star connection vs triangle connection), so you should ask your electrician to get a real estimate (more reliable than mine...). But most probably if you take a 10-15kV transformer it would be no problem.
I just don't believe it will bring you anything more (or less) than a smaller transformer. Only potential problem would be the filtering, and perhaps (??) the fact that it is more difficult to get high quality filtering for bigger power(??).
Personally I would install a 7.5kVA.

stereotaipei April 06, 2007 15:27

upon re-reading my last sentance i would like to re-state it;

other than the Halcyonics issue which i am currently pursuing; i feel the only area of system performance which i feel has 'significant' potential for improvement is the power grid. obviously; all my gear and my room could be changed to other choices to please other tastes......but i am happy and satisfied with where i'm at.....and have no changes planned or contemplated.

when i built my room i looked foward to reaching this point; where the gear finally complimented the room properly......and then getting the power grid issues optimized. i feel i'm now at that point.

all i want to do is listen. even though i still enjoy the discussion of gear and such things......i am ready to move away from that for myself.

talk is cheap......we will see.

mikelavigne April 06, 2007 13:17

JF,

i am tempted to go for a much larger transformer; is there a point where a transformer is too big for my 2-phase, 70amp, 220V line and it would be less 'agile' to the transient needs?

in other words, is there a 'sweet spot' of matching transformers to the current potential for best efficiency?

would a larger transformer somehow be noiser? (i'm not talking about ambient noise but line noise).

regarding my power cord experience with the digital amps in the speakers; my big moment of performance gain was when i replaced the 'off the shelf' power cords i was using on the VR9's with the Jena Labs Fundamental One's. it was as if the whole system got a huge upgrade by dramtically reducing bass distortion. by using the Jena i both improved the power cord and added a conditioner......as well as put a brick-wall on the digital hash feedback from the digital amp in the VR9's back into my power grid. i have not A/B'd stock-to-Jena's with the MM3's ICE amp; but i suspect the same advantage was gained. in general i have found that high quality power cords make more difference than interconnect in system performance; but not quite as much as speaker cables. if i were to add the effect of the Oyaide outlets to the power cords it becomes collectively as much difference as a amp or source change.

i agree that as i have my own transformer at the street, i'm at the beginning of the trunk line for my neighborhood, and i live in a low RF/EMI environment that my starting point of noise is low; but i still am expectant of a clear gain of noise reduction and improved transient performance from the proper transformer isolation.

another 'prominent' local audiophile was able to attain significant gains in a similar enviroment by actually getting the power company to upgrade his transformer at the street and then adding another one near his room. my street transformer is only 7 years old and i'm not going to do the politicing to get that done; but i may in the future. i have also considered getting a separate street transformer and separate meter service just for my system.......

at this point i have no plans or even thoughts for other changes in my system......the power grid is the only place left to find performance gains.

mikelavigne April 06, 2007 12:51

Fsarc,
I fear that I am not qualified enough to be able to judge filter quality based on a photo(I am a management consultant, not an electrician)

One remark: if you ask your electrician to measure the power consumed by the MM3 on loud music, you will always get an average value, which I doubt will be above 1000W for the full system (typically intensity measurements are done with amperometric clamp, which give an average value on a certain time window). During transients, the power consumed is much higher (in particular with the dynamic headroom of a good turntable), so I would always dimension the transformer rating as larger than the max theoretical power of the system.

Mike,
I am wondering if you will hear the same kind of additional benefit as Fsarc with a transformer: your power supply is directly from the grid, you don't share it with a bunch of neighbors like all of us who live in big cities, so there shouldn't be too many parasite on it (most of it should be already filtrated with your Jena). I am curious to hear the results!
Last question for you guys, how big is the impact of the Jena (or other expensive power cables) when used for the bass module of the MM3? Before spending >$3000, I want to make sure it is really worth it...

stereotaipei April 06, 2007 10:16

JF- Great, informative post.

Mike- I think the 7.5 kVA is still more than enough even with a couple of monster amps. The MM3s are relatively efficient, have built-in 1000W powered woofers, so there is no way you are going to use, or clip, the full output of a 600 watt mono block into the midranges and tweeter. Your ears and the drivers will probably give out first. Once everything is hooked up, you can have your electrican measure the amount of electricity your system is consuming while playing some loud, dynamic music. That will give you an idea of the headroom you have left. I think the usage will be a lot lower than you think. I have my whole system powered off of one 20 amp breaker with no issues. I use a second, smaller 130 VA isolation transformer to keep the digital (EMM) isolated.

At a minimum, the 7.5 kVA iso will require a 240 V 40 amp 10 gauge input feed. You can easily do this with your exisiting wiring to the barn. Given the 70 amp, 220V feed to the barn, you could definitely feed a larger (10 kVA)transformer in the future if you require it.

The only area of potential improvement I can see on the MGE/UPS units is in the "filter" board. This board is connected in parallel to the secondary outputs and it looks like there could be some room for improvement in the quality of the parts on the board.

JF- Care to take a look at the filter board and comment if I send you a close up photo of it?

fsarc April 05, 2007 13:19

JF, two additional thoughts.

after my 'gripping' experience with the Oyaide i will never underestimate that issue again with power.

i still have 2 Jena Labs outlets on my amp wall and one near my sources. before i upgrade those i should likely invite some other locals for a quick A/B. it will also allow me to make sure i'm not being self-delusional.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 13:03

JF, thanks; i appreciate the explaination.

if a 7.5kVA gives me 200% headroom that is what was concerning me. based on the relative modest cost involved here i can always get a larger transformer in the future if i need to. there is plenty of room where it will be for it to be 2 or 3 times as large. not likely that would be necessary.

i will make sure that i get 'good contact' with the transformer.

my 'next amp' is likely a pair of yet to be built dart monoblocks that would more than likely use 2X the current that the stereo dart draws. i should still be just fine.

my only concern would be if i do any 'amp shootouts'. maybe i need 10kVA or 15kVA. based on my circut breaker and wire rated at 70amps 220V......how large a transformer would still yeild some benefit?

my intuition agrees with your 'clamping' comment. the Oyaide clamping is dramatically many-times as strong as any outlet i have ever used. all the fancy metalurgy doesn't hurt but the degree of contact is probably most of it.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 12:51

Mike,
seems like Frank already answered your questions on the phone. Let me just add a few comments
I would for sure put the transformer in the barn, not in the garage. The 145 feet of cable from the garage are by definition like a big antenna. They will absorb ambient RF. So if you want to reduce noise you need to install the transformer the closest to the devices connected to it.
Installations is really straightforward, the key is the attention to the details (good contact..) and for this a electrician doesn't always help

I don't see what an Halcyonic could bring to the transformer. As current is going through the coils of the transformer, it generates radial forces that make the coil vibrate. That's why you hear a hum... So by definition the transformer itself is vibrating. Your problem is here is not about vibration, but about quality of conduction: what you need in particular to take care of is the quality of the contacts at the exit of the transformer.
The installation should be really straightforward.

Btw, my hypothesis on why you hear such a difference with the Oyaide is also that 95% of it is coming from quality of contact, not from elimination of vibration (a carbon plate is nice... from a marketing and aesthetic point of view). On any standard plugs, you have a poor contact at the microscopic level, generating very small electrical arcs and therefore noise.
On the other side, elimination of vibration is much more important when you have electronic circuit / low power applications.

Regarding your question on the required power of the transformer, let me try to explain how to dimension it (I am not an electrician...). The problem is that the manufacturer doesn't give the rating of the transformer both in VA (used by electricians to dimension breakers and wire diameter) and Watt (for matching of equipment). For a pure resistance like a light bulb, one VA=1W. For a small size UPS, typically 1VA=0.6 to 0.7W (this coefficient is called the power factor of the equipment). Assuming this value (to be on the safe side, but you should ask the manufacturer), a 7.5kVA transformer corresponds to 4.5kW power supply.
Now how would you use these 4.5kW? Maximum consumption of one Dartzeel is 900W. MM3's Icepower is 1000W. All sources consume quite nothing, so the real problem is amps. So your current system probably consumes in peak power something like 2100W. With a 7.5kVA system, you can basically supply 2 times your system, so more than enough (if your next amp is not going to be a big true pure class A).
Now, of course you can always find situations in which it is not going to be enough: if you decide that you want to have a home theater with all 8 channels amplified by pure class A amplifiers (such as Gryphon Antileon), you would probably need 40kVA... (...)
hope it helps!

stereotaipei April 05, 2007 07:12

Nate, glad you enjoyed it (the scotch i mean). and i appreciate the kind words.

you are welcome any time.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 03:26

Frank; i do have 2-phase 70amp 220V. it appears that the 7.5kV version will easily fit into my cabinet below my panel. it should be easy to unscrew the cabinet from the wall, pull it out, and remove the cedar paneling to expose the 220v wire.

i need to call the local 'hot-shot' 'electrician to the stars' that the local high end shops use to do this.

this is across the hallway from my room.....so whatever slight noise that the transformer does emit should be limited by the cabinet and wall and door. if necessary i can line the inside of the cabinet with sound proof.

if i really want to go overboard i could get a Halcyonics for the transformer. that may be a bit much even for me. OTOH after hearing the effect of the Oyaide outlets i am done predicting what resonance control (and clamping power) might accomplish.

thanks again for the coaching. it makes it nice when you have already done all the investigation and testing. i can just plug it in and enjoy.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 03:19

Mike- It was nice speaking with you earlier tonight. Saved me a lengthy post. :-]

Just make sure you contact a reputable electrician in your area for the installation. You may want to disucss things (exisiting wire size, location, etc.) with him prior to purchasing the iso.

Frank

fsarc April 05, 2007 01:04

Hi Mike,
Thanks for having me over! Reading about a system like yours builds high expectations, and last weekend my expectations were exceeded. The only thing that can compete with your system and source material is your hospitality- and maybe some of that scotch ;)

Enjoy your spring! Hopefully you won't get any more snow...

Thanks again
Nate

chico_j April 05, 2007 00:11

Frank, i think the line to my deicated room panel is 3-phase 70amp 220V. it runs from my garage in my house to the barn......a total of 125 feet of cable inside conduit. then at my barn panel i have 2 dedicated ground rods. the panel has 11 circuts which then feed the outlets in my room only.

the HVAC, lights and regular outlets in my room run off a 100amp panel in the barn.

with 70amps would you recommend the 7.5kVA model. i am most concerned about if i were to get a larger amp(s) in the future or even multi-channel....would 7.5kVA be sufficient to avoid any current limiting?

i have lots of room where my panel is in my garage to place a large transformer and no one can hear it. is that where it would do the most good? or should it be at the barn end of the line? i do have a cabinet in the hallway outside my room below my dedicated panel where the transformer could go; would there be any performance benefit to having it closer?

i'm ready to pull the trigger on this as soon as i figure it out.

if you think there would be any benefit from a 10kVW unit i would go that way.......i really have no clue.

is bigger better?

i don't care about mechanical noise or hum as long as it does not pollute the line.

mikelavigne April 05, 2007 00:04

JF- I don't know if it can be used with 50Hz. You would have to contact MGE to be sure. I clicked on their European/Asian products and they don't have any isolation transformers listed.

As far as the noise level goes, mine is actually in the room with me behind a closet utility door. It is undetectable at the listening position. Using my SPL meter, I can't get a reading at the lowest setting (which is 30db) holding the meter about 4-5 feet away.

It is very cheap, but for most there will be the additonal cost of installation.

fsarc April 04, 2007 20:19

Fsarc,
$776 is really cheap! As you say, worth trying. My only concern is the noise: they indicate 50dB max at 3 feet. 50dB is a lot, much more than a hum! I would still hear it even if I put it in the next room... Is it really so loud from your experience?
Can it also be used with 50Hz? they indicate 60Hz in the documentation, but if it is just a coil-based transformer, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
JF

stereotaipei April 04, 2007 17:24

Stereotaipei,

the conditioners were the Isotek GII Titan for amps, and the G11 Nova for sources.

2 weeks prior i had tried the Nova and it did improve things a bit.....which was prior to installing the Oyaide outlets. then on Sunday i slightly preferred my Jena's by themselves with sources and they were about equal on my dart. which tells me two things;

that one benefit of the Isotek was a better clamping system for the Jena's. once the Oyaide was installed and that was already present the benefit of improving on the Jena's was gone.

the Jena Labs fundamental One power cords are damn good and equal an expensive power conditioner that many of my friends are raving about.

i'm not sure that this comparison was definitive as we used some Oyaide power cords with sources but due to logistics needed to use my Jena's on the dart and ICE amps in my speakers.

YMMV

i have 7 Fundamantal One power cords in my system at about $1800 retail each....the Isotek units are $4200 and $2700 each.....i can't remember which is which.

regarding the dynamic effect of a transformer; i agree it is a concern.....until i hear it i cannot know for sure.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 13:42

"you hear all the defects... and end up throwing away 30% of your recordings..."

what is nice is that when i hear a recording where i like the music but it's edgy or somehow flawed i can reduce the tweeter gain and richen the crossover.....or if the bass is boomy i can lean out the bass. it is 10 seconds to change or change back. OTOH there is no place to hide......different pressings or even different versions of the same CD sound different.

with my RCA Shaded Dogs Lps i do drop the tweeter settings an additional 1 db due their 'tipped up' treble......and a few of those Shaded Dog SACD's (the one's mastered on the DCS gear) i also do likewise. any time there is a non-musical characteristic that distracts me i can deal with it.

i have a friend that uses tubes on his Harbeths listening to his tt with his Cardas Heart cart; he spends lots of time listening to live orchestral music and travels around going to hear concerts around the country and even the world. he prefers a very full bass, a recessed treble, and listens at relatively low volume. the MM3's are the first speaker i have owned that i could adjust to where he was completely satisfied where he loved them......he called the strings and vocals 'correct' and 'very sweet' and thought the overall balance correct. it is far different than my personal tastes......but how can i argue. what i enjoy is that the MM3's can pull that off without losing their magic. i listened to his setup after he left for a while......it was magical but not as involving for me.

my opinion is that the clarity in the mid-range, naturalness, and coherence of the MM3's allows it retain it's magic no matter how the frequency extremes are adjusted.

anyway; as my personal tastes evolve the MM3's can follow that. and if anyone is afraid that the MM3's aren't 'this way' or 'that way'.....they can be.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 13:17

Mike, Stereotaipei- Regarding the MGE/Topaz isolation transformer- I think the key is to make sure you install one with a sufficient kVA rating so as to not saturate the transformer core. I have a 5 kVA model which is more than enough for my system. There have been no negative effects with the iso in my system. In fact, since I can do the work myself, I recently switched back to dedicated lines right off the circuit panel. Performance definitely dropped off in my system. Putting the iso back resulted in a lower noise floor, smoother highs, better staging and imaging, and actually better dynamics. I think the perceived increase in dynamics is from the reduction of the noise floor. Macro and micro dynamics are preserved providing a greater feeling of overall dynamics.

As with any with any component, tweak, etc, it may be system dependent so I cannot say everyone will experience the same effects. I have been through a lot of "audiophile" power conditioners (BPT, Shunyata, Sound Application, Running Springs, Audiophile APS) and definitely feel the iso transformer has been the best in actually lowering the noise floor in my system. All the other products make some fancy claims, but never provide any specs regarding what they actually do (BPT and APS do provide some specs/data). The MGE/ Topaz units are spec’d to provide 140 dB of common mode noise reduction and 65 dB of normal mode noise reduction. Given their intended applications, they have to provide verifiable noise reduction (amongst other features) and not rely on fancy metallurgy, mystical compounds, or esoteric wiring.

My 5 kVA Mge/Topaz Power-Supress 100 was $776. A true bargain for what is does. Some of the drawbacks to this approach are having to hire an electrician to do the installation, having the room to support the transformer, and making sure it is sufficiently isolated form the listening room as it will generate a low level hum.

Mike for your application, MGE/Topaz makes a 7.5 kVA model which is more than enough. I honestly feel the 5 kVA iso would also be sufficient. If you are truly set on a 10 kVA transformer, there is another company that makes very high quality isolation transformers- Controlled Power Company- 5-25 kVA. Given the price of these units, I would certainly give it a try before spending the big $$$ on the Equitech cabinet. There really isn’t much to the installation. It took me about 45 minutes to install mine. More info below-

http://www.controlledpwr.com/productDetails.php?id=41
http://www.mgeups.com/products/pdt120/powerc/tpz100/t100data.pdf

fsarc April 04, 2007 13:06

Mike,
Yes, I forgot to say that the versatility of setting of the MM3 is also one of the key reason why I preferred them. I was amazed to hear how much difference your change of 2.5dB on the tweeter can generate...

aargh... I cannot imagine that the MM3 even sounds better with the Oyade... you need to stop trying new things or I will need to find a new job to finance this hobby...

I agree that the Dart combination with MM3 is magical. Wslam says the same about the Dart with the Mini (and he tried a lot of amps before deciding for the Dart): looks like this amp works very well with dynamic / transparent to the source speakers. These speakers are magnifying lenses: your hear all the defects... and end up throwing away 30% of your recordings...

When I listened to the mini, they did sound for me a little bit analytical with the Spectral. Not with the ARC Ref 210 but I was losing a little bit on the Spectral dynamic. Seems like the Dart is the best of two worlds.

When I listened to your MM3, I didn't feel like it was worth tweaking further the settings: what I heard was very natural and convincing already!

Regarding conditioners: which one did you try already? how much is the power-suppress 100 transformer? how different is it from a conditioner (in term of how it works)? I also really wonder if you don't lose on dynamic...

stereotaipei April 04, 2007 10:55