some brief added thoughts; i would love to hear the Mini with the dart; i've only heard the Mini with the Rowland 201's (as i recall)......which while a nice amp it's certainly not the last word in naturalness......and with such a detailed speaker as the Mini the Rowland's shortcomings are revealed.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 05:18

Stereotaipei, i wish you had heard the system with those Oyaide outlets......quite a profound difference in overall refinement. my jaw is still dropping with every long-time reference disc being redefined after 3 days.

i've listened to the Mini's twice at shows. i was very impressed but agree that it can sound a bit analytical. it certainly images wonderfully. very dynamic and refined. i feel the MM3's equal the Mini's in both detail and imaging; but i've adjusted mine to be sweeter and more natural sounding. if i raise the tweeter gain, reduce the crossover frequency, and lean out the bass a bit......the MM3 is a much finer, more precise, speaker. more 'apparent' detail and immediacy. but not as much like music. it would have been interesting to get your impressions with that sort of setup.

in a couple of months you will be able to hear that for yourself.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 05:11

Islandear; you are welcome.

and no; it will never end......the onion always seems to have another layer to peel.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 04:55

Frank, i am seriously considering your isolation transformer as an inexpensive alternative to the big Equi=tech panel system. it would be easily installed in my garage in the house just inside my A/C meter. it's cheap enough that if it does not improve things no big deal......as long as it does not restrict dynamics having the isolation cannot hurt.

i agree that the MM3's in this room create quite the 'test tube' environment. i find that the slightest adjustment in anything is noticable. it does make finding the sweet spot quite obvious.

Sunday we were comparing some power conditioners to my Jena Labs cables. i had switched back and forth between digital and vinyl a few times. when i do that i attenuate the tweeter 2.5db due to the high frequency energy of my vdH Colibri cart. at one point i thought that the power conditioner was a bit less open and extended and softer sounding than the Jena's......it turned out i had forgot to switch my tweeter settings back to the 'digital' position. i adjusted it and then i could not reliably tell the difference between the Jena's and the $3k power conditioner.

i like it when things like that happen. it proves to me that my ears are acting objectively. i heard a difference since there was one......and when there wasn't a difference i did not hear one. everyone needs a bit of self applied double-blind once in a while. with the ultimate resolution of the MM3's things are always so easy to pick out.

mikelavigne April 04, 2007 04:51

Zdeng,
Regarding my listening impressions in Mike room: I can only fully share his comments: full range, transparency, emotion on voices... (sorry, English is not my native language... I am lacking vocabulary to express the emotion you feel listening to them)
First, I want to emphasize again that the Magico Mini are GREAT speaker. If Alon Wolf wouldn't have decided to change distributor in Taiwan, my order wouldn't have been canceled and I would be the happy owner of a pair of Mini today. Since I listened to the Mini in a different room, it is difficult for me to make an objective comparison with MM3. I don't know how much from the good impression I got with the MM3 is coming from Mike's room and from the quality of the other components he is using. One thing is sure: I would be happy with any of these speakers, so the choice between both of them was tough.

Even if I find both the Mini and the MM3 at the same level of performance, I just chose the MM3 for a few reasons:
- I am now moving from Taiwan to Japan, from a small room (15'x17') to a larger room (18'x26'). In my previous room, the Mini was the ideal speaker, I would never have bought a pair of MM3
- If I would have bought the mini, I would have added 2 torus subwoofers. The integration of the MM3 woofer is probably less problematic than with 2 torus. I was concerned about spending months finding the right position, etc
- the MM3 probably have an edge on big orchestral work (Mahler symphonies... are even better on MM3), as with 2 mid-range and 15" woofers drivers are less stressed
- With the Mini, I was still hesitating on the perfect match in term of amp: I listened to them both with ARC Ref 210 and Spectral amps, liked it but I wouldn't have bought any of them. The Dartzeel is amazing, but would probably be not powerful enough with the Mini in my new room. Wslam is using the Dart with Mini in a smaller room, and he loves it! The MM3 (93dB sensitivity, impedance never dipping below 5 Ohm) are a perfect match for the Dart... so I bought both of them!
- the ribbon tweeter of the MM3 is sweeter than the Mini. Very similar to the Magico model 6 sound.
- at $38k, the MM3 are a steal: the finition is fantastic (same level as the Magico), and it cost me less than a pair of mini with 2 torus!
- as with the Mini, the bass of the MM3 is sealed: you would love it! In Mike's room, bass goes very deep but you don't hear a boomy bass as with Maxx2 for example (people say that the Maxx2 bass is great, personally I was very disappointed the two times I listened to them: too prominent and not clean!)
On the other side, the Mini probably image better and are even a little bit more transparent/analytical than the MM3. I also loved the concept of having a smallish speaker that sounds like a mega-speaker!
But they have a similar sound signature: If you like Kharma or Magico sound, you would probably like the MM3.

Both are so great speakers that if I would have to wait 6 months to get my MM3 and only 2 months for the Mini, I would go for the Mini... that tells how amazing it is that a small 2 ways like the mini can compete with a huge speaker like the MM3.
I am 100% convinced that I took the right decision? No... I would have to listen to both speakers in the same room with same equipment to be 100% sure I bought the best one. But I am sure that any of them will satisfy me for the next 10 years...
Who knows... perhaps I am going to end up buying a pair of Mini for my 2nd home...

stereotaipei April 04, 2007 01:44

Stereotaipei,

Would you please tell us your experience in Mike's listening room?

I do not have a chance to go there, but I would like to know what you think.

Why do you now want to buy MM3 instead of Magico Mini?

Thanks

zdeng April 03, 2007 18:14

Fsarc,
I see you are using the MGE/Topaz Power-Supress 100 transformer: can you tell more about it? In which configuration do you use it? What is the contribution of an isolation transformer from your experience?

PS: I made today my deposit from my pair of MM3... after having listened to it at Mike's home

stereotaipei April 03, 2007 10:11

Mike, thanks for the info re Oyaide. I have wondered how much better they might be, considering how enthusiastic some folks have been about FIM and Furutech outlets - not to mention the Oyaides. Still another facet of the chain to consider - and I thought the PS Audio outlets were a step up...will this never end?

islandear April 02, 2007 14:55

Mike- I have three of the Oyaide combos and indeed they are quite special as you have described. Now you just need to try a really good isolation transformer to really lower the noise floor.

I don't know about you Mike, but I'm finding the MM3s are remarkable in revealing the slightest changes made in my system. There's no hiding from "bad" decisions......

fsarc April 02, 2007 06:01

further Oyaide thoughts; after more consideration it seems clear that the degree of performance change is likely due to the fact there is an additive factor at work. except for the battery powered dart pre; all my gear is affected equally. both ICE digital bass amps in the MM3's are plugged in, as well as the dart amp, both EMM Labs boxes and the tt. so depending on the source; 4 for analog and 5 for digital; there is an accumulative degree of affect.

i've been listening to high energy classical for the last hour. big scale orchestral stuff. the combination of ease and dynamic energy is addicting. the more i listen the more i hear how the bass has extended and tightened; become real and alive.

it's really silly how plug connections on power cords can be such a big deal.

i would like to caution that however real my experience might be it could be unique to the context of my system and is no proof of equal benefit without listening for yourself.

YMMV,

now back to Mahler.....

mikelavigne April 02, 2007 04:23

i have been struggling today with my reaction to some newly installed products. my reaction is quite over-the-top......it's one of those "i gotta re-listen to all my reference music" kinda situations. i'm pretty excited because of the degree of improvement is coming from an unexpected source. my current focus is on power conditioning (i'm only using the in-line conditioners in the Jena power cables) and active isolation (see the last few posts above for details).

a couple of weeks ago my friend Joe (who has started his own 'audio tweak' business) brought over some 'hot shot' Oyaide duplex A/C outlets and two piece outlet frames and covers to replace my Jena Labs cryo'd outlets in my room. the Jena's had been installed a few years back with my dedicated lines and #10 guage Romex wire. i had been very happy with the Jena's and was not looking to change. at that time we only had time to try one frame and cover......and we could not hear any difference. Joe agreed to come back over and install the whole thing when he got enough in stock. this morning he installed five Oyaide R1 Beryllium duplex outlets ($125 retail ea), and five Oyaide milled aluminum bases and five carbon fibre plate covers ($199 retail ea). $324 retail X 5 = $1620 worth of duplex outlets. seems pretty crazy even for me.

the duplex outlets are labled 20A 125V. the body is made of PBT with glass filler. they feature polished beryllium copper, paladium on platinum plating contacts, heavy duty triple wipe contacts, and 24K Gold-plated brass band. none of that info means jack to me. what is different is that to get my Jena Labs plugs into these babies you gotta push hard and there is a very solid snap when it locks in. unlike anything i have seen......i wish the damn IEC connections on the back of all our electronics could be made to work like that.

then there is the Aluminum base plates; which attach to the in-wall box. once the base is attached; the duplex outlet is connected to the electrical lines; the duplex outlet is then attached to the base plate (very solidly) and then the carbon fibre cover is attached over the duplex outlet. all in all, very solid and really beautiful looking. excessive audio jewelry at it's finest.

but these things ROCK!!!

these expensive outlets have the best price/performance ratio in my system. from the first note; every aspect of the sound was improved. lower noise floor, better sense of space and more extended boudaries of the stage, better macro and micro-dynamics, better clarity and textural nuance, and more natural extended high frequencies. if i had to add up the differences; it would come down to the system sounding less reproduced and more like music.

i did not listen to the duplex outlets without the base plate and cover plate; so i cannot say what part is most significant. my guess is that the clamping power of the duplex outlet is most significant; followed by the elimination of resonance by the base plate-duplex outlet connection. if you look at how a normal dulplex outlet is attached to the wall box.....it's pretty flimsey and likely amplifies resonance. the drama here is simply how significant the wall attachment of power cords is in system performance......it's huge.....at least in my system.

after the last 6 hours of listening i'm still under the spell of these little jewels.....and i just had to share.....

i'll be listening late tonight......and that is no April Fool's joke.

mikelavigne April 02, 2007 03:27

Islandear; your April sounds like mine; i'll be here and there this month too.....hopefully afterwords we can connect. i agree that the proof is in the listening; music is art......not scientific theory.

mikelavigne April 02, 2007 01:59

Hi Bkonig-
There are no absolutes in audio, and "better" is very subjective. There is no rule that says a product that works well for me will work well for you. I'm sure that your experience is valid and in line with the specific set of issues that your system has-what ever they may be.
What products have you found that work in your system? Please share your positive experiences as well as the negative! ;)

Nate

chico_j April 01, 2007 15:20

Chico, Mike's response is, essentially, true. But, as we all know, theory and practicability don't always jive, so the only real solution is to experiment with as many devices as you can afford to assemble. However, having said that, keeping the chain as simple as possible generally provides the greatest efficacy. I've been back east for a week and yesterday I had the opportunity to hear Pete Bizlewicz' latest iteration of his Roller Blocks. This prototype, all of which has been awarded a patent - including the metal amalgamation - is more than a step up from his previous RBs. While this iteration is still a ball in cup design, it employs a puck design with very strong neodymium magnets that not only center the ball (a series 2 ball - very dense, verrry expensive) but aids in the drain of energy from the mounted component.

We replaced Roller Blocks with the new prototype under Peter's Wavac 833s, as well as his Defy 7, and the response was truly ear opening. No hype here. We had a NY dealer as well as the sales manager for a well-known international wire mfr in the room and everyone was able to identify the same effects: Wider dispersion, greater articulation, sweeter midrange and exceptional LF/HF reproduction. These babies won't be inexpensive - probably about...well, I won't go there, let's just say they're cheaper than Halcyonics...LOL

islandear April 01, 2007 12:57

Michael, yes, I'm still very interested in coming to visit. Right now I'm in NYC and will only be home for a day or two before heading back out, but I'll definitely contact you after April. In the meantime I'm looking forward to your inclusion of the VR-11s into your system!

Just continues to impress me (and, yeah, that green tinge around my edges is envy...LOL)

Blaine

islandear April 01, 2007 12:37

Chico j - I would just like to add that I tried the top of the line HRS platform with my turntable and pre-amp. Both were within the recommended weight range. I was very disappointed in the performance. Did not provide a very black background and sense of quiet and space between the notes (dynamic shading/contrasts which gives music life) and did not give you that sense of layered depth and transparency like better devices that I have tried.

bkonig April 01, 2007 02:46

In this discussion, especially considering Mike's top-shelf gear a couple questions arise in my mind- Is there a specific 'problem' frequency range, or is wide frequency dampening needed? Will one dampening method compromise the functioning of the other? Islandear, I believe that your suggestion of the ridgid/'DC' coupled shelf might be really important for getting the best performance out of the Halcyonics. A compliant platform on top of the halcyonics might not be beneficial at all.

What I had in mind was the halcyonics and then other dampening products applied to the chassis of the component to damp high frequency vibrations.
nate

chico_j April 01, 2007 00:50

Islandear; the Vibraplane is an active device; but as it uses air it is much 'softer' than the Halcyonics. adding additional passive isolation to the Halcyonics would likely not help. i do own a Svelt Shelf (along with a mag-lev shelf, Aurios, and numerous other passive isolation devices).

i will trot them all out when i get an active platform and we'll see how they work. i hope that your perspective is correct; that the limitations of active can be reduced by adding passive.

BTW, if you are still interested in visiting you would be most welcome. e-mail me and we can figure it out.

mikelavigne March 31, 2007 21:48

hi Nate; my opinion is that no isolation used under components effectively eliminates air-born mid to high frequency vibrations. the build design and construction of specific gear and actual acoustic barriers are the main ways to minimize higher frequency vibrations.

the darTZeel uses a sealed, milled aluminum case...and i expect that it is likely less affected by high frequency vibration that other open-box designs. however; putting the darTZeel into an acoustic enclosure or in another room would likely bring improvement (i am not interested in either of those options).

when i get an active isolation platform i will investigate different strategies to see what other of my 'tweak collection' might address higher frequency vibration.

after reading about the effect of combining passive with active i have my doubts as to the positive affect of using an HRS shelf with an active device. in essence, you would compromise the precision of the active device.

BTW, when it works for you please let me know and we will work out a good time for your visit.

mikelavigne March 31, 2007 21:41

I would agree that the Halcyonics platforms - per their documentation - as active devices made for scientific instruments sensitive to low frequency vibration, are expressly designed to compensate for low frequency vibration, and I would consider it doubtful that higher frequency damping is included in the engineering specification for these devices. If that is the case, I expect components would benefit from additional HF vibration damping as you suggest as, for example, Michael Fremer discovered was true with a Symposium platform on top of the low-frequency isolating Vibraplane. The optimum combination here would also most likely be to combine a true damping platform which can damp both the top plate of the Halcyonics devices as well as the component itself, and what comes to my mind as an excellent choice here would be a Symposium Ultra Platform or even a Svelte Shelf, since they are rigid (essentially "DC" coupled) and because of a symmetrical energy absorbing design, are able to damp both the support surface and the component at the same time (thereby effectively isolating the two without creating or incurring resonances).

islandear March 31, 2007 01:14

I suppose an interesting, and most definetly expensive, experiment would be to compare a combination of the better passive platforms/isolation devices with a Halcyonics platform. The product that first comes to mind are the dampening plates and platforms from HRS, but this is just because I have experience with them. Using their isolation products to damp the higher frequency resonances (which they are very good at) with the Halcyonics might be an effective 'system' for controling the frequency range-- much like how your room was designed.

Hope all is well Mike- school and work are killing me right now, but hopefully your invitation still stands to come out for a visit!

Nate in Seattle

chico_j March 30, 2007 05:07

Stereotaipei; another comment after refection.

regarding airborn vibrations; i would expcet that the Halcyonics does eliminate airborn vibration thru the platform itself. OTOH airborn vibration will always have 'some' theoretical effect on any gear in the room, whatever it sits on.

the distributor for industrial/scientific applications of the Halcyonics makes specific enclosures that are used with the Halcyonics to fully eliminate air born vibrations.

mikelavigne March 28, 2007 18:12

Stereotaipei, although i did read some of the supporting documentation on the Halcyonics, i cannot recall specific info on how it does on over 50hz vibrations. OTOH when Will Wright brought over the Halcyonics i was using the 'loaner' VR7SE's pulled out very wide; almost pointed straight at the rack with the EMM Labs CDSD transport. if ever a setup might be susceptable to air-born vibrations this one would be. your read my results. as you are many levels more technically capable than myself maybe you can look at the info and comment.

regarding the Critical Mass platform and Will's comments in the review i read it different. what he said was that with one Halcyonics unit in his system the overall highest performing combination was the Critical Mass under the Universal Player and the tt and the Halcyonics under the preamp. he did not say that he preferred the Critical Mass to the Halcyonics.

***********

"Much to my surprise, I ended up preferring this configuration. Although this is most probably not where I would have ended up without the Grand Master platforms to go under my source components, this configuration provided the best overall performance for the whole system. Whether spinning records or optical discs, the results were sublime. My preamp absolutely loved the Micro 40 and as a result, so did I. This was unexpected. In fact, I would have expected my previous configuration of Micro 40 under turntable and Grand Master under preamp to be superior."

*****************

in conversations with me Will said that the Critical Mass was fairly close to the Halcyonics in some ways, but not as good with any of his gear. My guess is that you could also say that the Grand Prix Audio racks are 'fairly close' to the Halcyonics too.

i would expect that the very best passive isolation will get close to the Halcyonics depending on the particular situation and the characterisitics of the gear being isolated. also, the higher the resolution of the system the greater the benefit of the Halcyonics. i know that what i heard from the Halcyonics was unique in my experience of digital playback. and the fact that it was all positive...more natural and more involving.

mikelavigne March 28, 2007 17:45

Mike,
regarding the Halcyonics, have you found any information on how well they absorb vibration at frequencies >50Hz? All of these active tables have been developed for applications where the biggest concern is low frequency vibration (mostly from the building structure) whereas in our case the air-borne vibration generated by the loudspeakers are probably a larger problem.
It is a very nice thing to be able to absorb vibration at 1Hz (vs. typically 5Hz for most conventional passive designs), but I would like to make sure it is also not at the expense of the absorption in higher frequencies: given how the Halcyonics work, I fear there is a physical limit on at what speed it can compensate for higher frequency vibrations.
On the opposite, most passive platforms absorb very well frequencies >20Hz, but have problem of one resonance at a very low frequency, and they don't go as low as the Halcyonics.

One thing which puzzled me also in the positive feedback review, is that the author ended up preferring critical mass system isolation platform under his CD player and the Halcyonics under the turntable. At less that 1/3 of the cost of the Halcyonics, are the critical mass systems platforms something you have considered, and tested in the past?

stereotaipei March 28, 2007 15:52

Mattnshilp - My MM2's should arrive very shortly. They are the finest speakers I ever experienced and I heard lots of super stuff. I do not believe the speakers will be at the show. You are welcome to come on over to my place to audition. My room is a similar size to yours (a drop bigger). I have a dedicated room in my basement. I'm located in PA 2 hours from Manhattan.

bkonig March 28, 2007 04:48