Hey Mike..probably should not make this into a home theatre thread so last comments on the subject (unless u prompt me!)

Agree on Parc in 2 channel: not needed but even more so given it would be inserted btwn the pre and pwr amps, the Dart 50ohm zeel connect goes out of the window: I say not!

I am still going thru an home theatre mutli channel set up, mainly for movies yes, but once in awhile want to have decent audio and experiment with multi channel audio as well...

As such one thing I have decided: the player will be TEAC Esoteric's DV 60: I prefer Meitner but it ain't DVD: the DV 60 is very good on all audio formats and upascales to 1080 P.

I thought about the EMM Labs switchman or other analogue multi channel per amps such as was it CJ that had one? But the thing is for multi channel set up bass mgmt is important....or at least for movies. So personally going to opt for pre.pro with bypass functionality (for all music)...

henryhk May 29, 2007 15:46

Greg,

i am very happy with what my ears hear and my eyes see.....and life is good.

Aaron,

in the first few months with the MM3's i was happy with the single dart but i did have a sense that more power would be preferrable for the MM3's in my room. as i learned the proper crossover settings and bass settings that sense was considerably reduced. as breakin completed i got more and more energy and grip.

then more recently with the installation of the Oyaide RS-1 duplex outlets the system took on a much better micro-dynamic life.

i no longer hanker for more power. if Herve builds higher power monoblocks i'll likely step up as i know head-room is always a good thing. but i would not sacrifice one bit of the refinement and beauty i now have for more power.

regarding the Caliburn/Cobra; if i have not listened to my Rockport for awhile i do get to thinking about it. when the cash flow result of the MM3 decision was upon me i was slightly tempted to pursue that direction.

then i listen to vinyl on the Rockport and find that i am totally happy in every way with what i have. maybe the Caiburn is better in some ways.....maybe not. it is really not important to even know. when i look at the complexity and set-up challenges of the Caliburn compared to the amazingly simple and likely 'forever' aspect of the build quality of the Rockport.....it doesn't make sense to change.

i know that for what i could sell the Rockport for and what a Caliburn has already been offered to me for.......this is not really a matter of money (not that it's not more--just not that much more).....i simply believe that long-term the Rockport is the right tt for me. and if i start thinking different i just have to play a few Lps and that is the end of that.

mikelavigne May 28, 2007 14:42

Mike, I think someone said ..."life is what happens to you when you are pursuing your dream..."
The speakers are beautiful.

gregadd May 28, 2007 03:04

Mike,

Sounds like you are very happy with the Evolution Acoustics MM3, single Dartzeel amp and single run of Transparent Opus MM speaker cables, congratulations! I do recall you saying that a pair of Dartzeel monoblocks may enter the equation should such a beast ever exist.

Are you contemplating the Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn/Cobra or Criterion/Copperhead analog front ends? I know that the Rockport performs at such a seriously high level (and looks beautiful) that it would be difficult to part with it.

Enjoy,

Aaron

drajreynolds May 28, 2007 02:45

below is an answer to a question put to me on the AVS forum i thought i should share here.

**************

Mike,

Are the VR11 still on order? Or are you satisfied with the MM3 enough to stop there?

Joey

hi Joey,

i have choosen the MM3's. my dealer will be selling the VR11's which were built for me.

no speaker does everything better than every other speaker; or even as well. no speaker is perfect for everyone.

i know there are aspects of the VR11 that i will always lust after to some degree. the combination of 4 woofers and 2 powered subwoofers in each speaker and still quite properly integrated allows for other-worldly bass dynamics. for a coherent speaker a totally unique level of macro-dynamics. and my room would have been perfect for them.

if the VR11's would have been delivered in 10 weeks as originally promised; instead of the 10 months they have taken.....they would be in my room now. no doubt i would have loved them.

OTOH i know my personal listening priorities are better served by the special musical qualities of the MM3's; their higher levels of coherence, detail and sweetness.......the smoother mid-tweeter and higher transparency. the VR11's are excellent at all these things too but not to the level of the MM3's.

i also spent a good deal less money on the MM3's, and was able to sell a set of Opus speaker cables and a dart amp......so a huge difference in out of pocket dollars. my wife is very happy.

finally;even though the VR9's and VR11's are well built and nice looking......the MM3's are really beautiful and elegant with their curves and rich layered wood cabinet......just a higher level of fit and finish.

i highly recommend the VR9SE and VR11SE. i cannot think of a weakness in either speaker.

it's funny how things work out sometimes.

as far as whether i will 'stop there'.......as i told OB, that is my intention.

however; forever is a long time........

******************

mikelavigne May 28, 2007 01:56

Henry, more on #3.

room correction; more needed for multi-channel? i assume you are referring to the adding of multi-channel to my 2 channel room.

since i've not yet started multi-channel listening in the 2-channel room my viewpoint is based on theory, not practice. the reality could be different.

first; the 2-channel room is highly diffusive; particularly in the rear of the room. HT's are typically a bit more absorbtive to reduce speaker interaction. you are generally looking for more direct sound from multi-channel and less reflective sound. my room was optimized for 2-channel with lots of diffusion to retain maximum energy.

i would call my multi-channel approach......'multi-channel lite'. partly due to my concern for an over-prominent rear channel that would be distractive, and partly for aesthetic and space concerns.....i am using small rear channel speakers with limited low frequency output. the walls near these speakers contain lots of diffusive elements. i expect that the rears will be 'happy' where i plan to put them even though to get the angle and distance i need, they will be very close to my rear side-wall. i do have a bass trap built into that rear corner as well as bass trapping in the ceiling above.

i have no interest in any DSP room correction in my 2-channel room. if i cannot attain a natural sound with it; i'll likely abandon the multi-channel in the 2-channel room. the PARC? not likely but possible if i get a muddy mid-bass from the rears.....but i would only consider it for the rears.

mikelavigne May 22, 2007 12:56

hi Henry, no doubt....great minds think alike.

but seriously......

1. i am using the EMM Labs Switchman III. this is a consumer version of a pro audio product. it is simply a 6 channel analogue preamp with gain settings for each input and a wired remote. very minimalist; no DSP whatsoever (nothing is digitized) and a bit industrial looking. it's actually a very good sounding preamp.....likely just below the very top level of ss analogue preamps. it is ideal for SACD or any multi-channel analogue source. Blue Ray and HD-DVD players (lossless HD sound) with 5.1 analogue outs would work perfect (assuming you have a small monitor for the interface.

there are a few HT processors which have 5.1 analogue pass-thru's that could do this but they are not typically in the same performance class as the Switchman. also; none of those offer an analogue 'phantom center'. (most can do a DSP phantom center but if you are going to trash the SACD with PCM then why bother).

in my HT room i use the Lexicon MC-12.....a very good digital processor for film. it has a 5.1 analogue pass-thru.......but it literally sucks as an analogue preamp. it's congested, grainy, and lacking any sort of refinement. analogue is an afterthought for the MC-12. i have no interest in listening to any analogue music in my HT room.

2. for 1080p i have 2 sources, the Sony BDP-S1 and the Toshiba HD-XA2. for 1080i sources i have Directv, Comcast, and the JVC HM-DH40000U D-VHS.

i have purchased a video processor, the Crystalio II, for video switching. i run HDMI cables into the Crystalio II and then run a digital audio cable from the processor to the Lexicon. the Crystalio II is a full feature 1080p processor and has an outstanding interface. it will do the upconversions from 1080i to 1080p as well as upconvert SD DVD and regular TV to 1080p. the Crystalio II then outputs 1080p into the JVC RS-1 front projector (an amazing projector). i also use the ISCO III lens for 2.35-1 constant height output onto my 115" x 49" 2.35 screen. the Crystalio II does the vertical stretching for the 2.35.

3. for the 7.1 in my HT room i currently do no DSP room correction other than some subwoofer bass tuning by ear. the room likely would sound better if i spent some time on it.......but 7.1 sound is not really 'truth' anyway; it's a damn foley stage. the picture is so big and beautiful that the sound is really secondary. i do intend to add some acoustic treatments; but i never seem to get around to it. whenever i watch a movie the soundtracks sound pretty good....maybe even great.

the room is 18.5' x 15' x 9'.

good enough? probably for video. i'll try to get around to posting some pictures one of these days.

mikelavigne May 22, 2007 05:21

OB, i went back and tried the RCA-XLR comparison (both are Valhalla) with and without the other plugged into the DAC6 SE.

the RCA still has a slight but clear edge. the only difference when both RCA and XLR are plugged into the DAC6 SE is an approx 3db drop in volume.....equal for both. the detail, imaging and stage height remain identical. even though it's only a gain issue i will still unplug the unused cable as there are likely subtle advantages to the higher gain that may not have revealed themselves in my quick comparison.

i have a guess as to why your effect was more dramatic. first; both of my sets of cables are connected to a powered up pre.....in your case your multi-channel pre was turned off.

Andreas told me that when I listen to dedicated 2 channel and there is no power going to the MC setup there is still a dielectric which potentially could cause my problem.

second, the image shift you mention was likely some sort of impedence imbalance. i have had the experience of a surprise image shift and lowering of soundstage. after checking everything i finally checked the impedence toggle on my dart amps. i had bumped one channel from 50 ohm to 75 ohm. i would have never guessed that a simple impedence imbalance could cause such a dramatic effect. what exactly caused your imbalance who knows (maybe the dialectic issue?).

again, thanks for the heads-up.

mikelavigne May 21, 2007 13:48

funny that Mike...over the years when I decided to upgrade my 2 channel system, I ended up with Meitner + Darts as well (including the Stealh Indra just like Fsarc)...speakers remain the same, which once gain will change as I finally move into a house I have purchased this summer....and

also building a HT system in living room (2 channel will be in my study)....so once again I see you are going thru a similiar journey though perhaps at a much more exalted level.

As I take into considertation room size, WAF etc and do some research, one thing I notice is that the main questions as I see it (given I too want to try multi channel hi rex music), are

1. HT processor: some of the best actually will re-digitize an incoming analogue signal: Goldmund, Meridian. But then SACD?

2. How does the HMDI and upscaling to 1080p work out? Externally? Processor? or Player direct?

3. Room Correction: more needed in case of multi channel?

Just some questions I am really wrestling with. Did notice that Rives Audio has come out with an analogue parametric bass equalizer for mutlti channel which could be of interest...though in a room such as yours may not be needed.

henryhk May 21, 2007 12:11

Mike,
thanks for the explanation... seems that I will have to go for some cable switching or live with 4 front speakers...

Murano amps: interesting! if I am not wrong they are taiwanese. Tell me how you like them, I may buy a few for my HT setup

stereotaipei May 21, 2007 11:23

hi Frank,

i have put the MGE/Topaz on hold for now for a couple of reasons. if i do multi-channel it will change the total peak current needs of the system (the JL Fathom sub takes 2500 peak watts by itself--and i might try 2 eventually).....when i install the MGE/Topaz i would need to have help to remove a built-in cabinet plus the cedar paneling behind it.....then i want to install an Isoclean wall panel when i do the MGE/Topaz since it's such a big job anyway. it's something i want to do but not at the moment.

i've not tried the Indra; i am quite happy with the Valhalla.....of course, there is always the Opus and now the Odin too. i'm always open to trying another cable but in 6 years so far only the Opus has bettered the Valhalla in my system.

mikelavigne May 21, 2007 01:11

Hi Mike- For me, running my CDSA SE single ended into the Dart was nothing short of revelatory. I think the Stealth Indras are contributing, but another CDSA/Dart user got similar results as well using a fairly inexpensive RCA interconnect versus his Jena Labs balanced. He has since ordered an Indra after hearing it in my system. Try one if the opportunity ever presents itelf- I would love to hear your impressions. Make sure it is the latest production version with the titanium RCAs.

Did you ever get the MGE/Topaz installed or have you put it on hold to undergo your multichannel journey?

Keep us posted on the multichannel, I can't wait to read how this develops for you.

Best,
Frank

fsarc May 21, 2007 00:37

OB, thankyou very much for the insight you provided into my planned wiring approach. from what you are saying i will need to unplug whichever channel 1 and 2 outputs i am not using.

what is curious is that a week or so ago i was comparing RCA and XLR inputs into the dart pre (for 2-channel). it had been suggested that the RCA's worked better (into the dart---i had used the XLR outputs on the EMM Labs gear for years). from my test i did prefer the RCA's into the dart but when testing i had both XLR and RCA's hooked up simultaineously from the DAC6e SE into the dart. i noticed no presentation issues during the comparison. maybe i need to re-do the test while unplugging the unused interconnects.

i will closely observe the results when i hook everything up. you would think my situation would work the same as yours.....but who knows?

i guess 'YMMV' is the operative comment. possibly the dart presents a different load compared to the Ref 3. it's beyond my level of understanding.

again, thanks for the info.

mikelavigne May 20, 2007 22:07

Mike

I read with interest your post regarding wirng output from the DAC6E SE by using RCA out to the DART and XLR cables to the Switchman.

I was using a similar wiring pattern last year for dedicated 2 channel listening to my ARC Ref 3 and RCA wires to my 6 channel preamp.

In theory it should have worked great with no need to remove wires. The problem however was that it dramatically and forthe worst changed my sound stage by lowering the imaging as well as shifting the balance to the left of center. At first I wondered if it were my amps (at that time I had ARC Ref 600 Mk lll). I spoke to the people at ARC who also wondered could it be the Ref 3 or even the DAC6SE or the cabling. They sent one of their technicians to my home who spent the afternoon testing all my cables which proved to be OK as did both the Ref3 and the Ref600 Mk lll's. Then we began to wonder,"could it be the DAC6e. The technician then pulled out all 6 RCA's which I was using for MC sound and instantly the soundstage and the left of center shift resolved. They left that day telling me the problem had to be the DAC 6E SE. As you probably know, Ed Meitner's partner Andreas Koch is a neighbor of mine. I phoned him and told him the problem thinking for sure that this was the DAC6E SE. He told me to bring the DAC over. which of course I did. Andreas put the DAC up on the bench and tested it and showed me that it was working perfectly. I was perplexed. I then told him how I was wiring my system and that is when he told me that was the problem. In essence it seems that the DAC 6E SE is not designed to have both XLR and RCA ouputs wired even though they are both there and one would think otherwise.. Andreas told me that when I listen to dedicated 2 channel and there is no power going to the MC setup there is still a dielectric which potentially could cause my problem. He told me to go home and plug it in for one or the other but not both. When I did there was absolutely no problem. I phoned him and told him the outcome and he told me "that is what the Switchman 3 will resolve"

In summary Mike, you might find that going to MC with a SWM 3 is OK BUT when you use dedicated 2 channel with your Dart preamp you could have the same issue that I did. For me the answer was simple...I still am a 2 channel purist and even though my room is wired for MC with speakers etc, to this day I have given up on MC listening.
Just my $0.02

YMMV

oneobgyn May 20, 2007 19:40

Stereotaipei, what HT processor do you use? most have some provisions for some sort of switching integration. the real issue for you is that you cannot avoid cable switching since you will not want to compromise the signal path purity of the APL unit by having it's signal routed thru some cheap (or even expensive) switcher. this switcher would allow you to switch from the APL as a source to your HT processor as a source and then output to the dart amp for the front 2 channels.

my previous system used the Placette RVC with a custom switchbox which was transparent. it used top-of-line Neutric connectors, a very expensive dual mono Shalco rotary switcher, very good cable and was all deep immersion cryo'd.....it wasn't cheap but it worked great. there are lots of 'pro audio' switchers out there but hard to say how good they are.

mikelavigne May 20, 2007 16:21

Stereotaipei, i forgot to talk about the subwoofer. it will likely be the JL Audio Fathom f113. read about it here.

initially i will just use it for the LFE channel from the Switchman. if i like it as well as i think i might.....i may get a second and try to see if i can add any 'punch' to the MM3's.....i'm quite skeptical about whether i can get subs to perfectly blend. but i do think my room can handle more bass power.

the local JL Audio dealer will be loaning me one to try soon.

mikelavigne May 20, 2007 15:28

Stereotaipei; i already have the separate Home Threatre room with my front projector and 7.1 surround for movies. i am adding multi-channel to my 2 channel room to enjoy SACD surround discs. later i may also add DVD-A and even lossless HD audio from HD-DVD and Blue Ray possibly if i like what it does.

when i designed the room i installed conduit in the floor for rear speaker, subwoofer and center channel interconnects (which all come to a floor box behind my gear rack); and extra dedicated outlets for them in those spots. last week i switched the duplex outlets in those spots to the Oyaide R1 Beryllium in anticipation of the multi-channel. i have long balanced XLR cables being made for the rears and subwoofers.

i have purchased the EMM Labs Switchman III and had the 'phantom center' channel option installed. my cable hookup will be as follows;

1. i will run 6 1m XLR cables from the DAC6e SE into the Switchman.

2.i will also run a set of RCA interconnects from the DAC6e SE into the dart pre for my normal 2-channel digital (the dart sounds better with RCA input). the DAC6e SE powers both XLR and RCA's at the same time.

3. the long interconnects (8m for left rear, 10m for right rear, and 8m for front left sub) will be plugged into the XLR output on the Switchman.

4. i will run a set of RCA's from the Switchman output back into an input on the dart pre. i can designate that input for unity gain by holding down the mute button 7 seconds......which effectively makes it an HT passthru.

this cable arraingement will eliminate the need for plugging and un-plugging any cables. the considerable flexibility of the EMM gear and the dart pre make it easy and elegant.

the Switchman does have 3 other 6 channel inputs for adding other devices in the future. the only issue there would be i would need to have a 'phantom center' circut change for any input i use (or add a center channel--which will never happen).

the rear speaker (and amp) issue has always been what has held me back from doing this.....for a few reasons. first; logistically i love the simplicity and elegance of my room the way it is. i enjoy the easy access to my software on my shelves; many times i am moving around with the lights low and i don't want to worry about some big speaker in the way. then there is the issue of dollars; to match my MM3's is a big outlay. i was skeptical that i could find an affordable, small speaker that could compliment the refinement, tonal balance and speed of the MM3's. then also find a small afordable amp that would also sound correct.

i feel strongly that the MM3's use of the Accuton Ceramic mid-range driver gives it a very 'Kharma-like' sound.....which i love. i did consider the Kharma Ceramique 3.2 as one possible rear channel choice since it is small; but even used it would be over $10k; and it is a floorstander. the Marten Design speakers have always sounded great to me, very Kharma like. they have that 'refinement' that many speakers simply don't have. Marten Design has a small 2-way monitor called the 'Duke' which i have purchased for the rear channels. it's not cheap ($7500 with stands), but it's beautifully made, it's small, and it should be very refined and fast. read about it here. i purchased them in the maple (which will match the cabinetry in my room). i already have them and they do fit the size and look parameters i set.

for an amp i was quite interested in the Rowland 201's and small and reasonably priced. then while researching them i came across a 501 clone (using the 1000 watt ICE module) that i decided to get instead.....the Murano P-1000S Plus. read about it here. these are $899 each retail. i read comments from users that they were essentially identical sounding to the $6k Rowland 501......i figured what the heck.....a rear channel amp which is small, uses little current, and likely would work just fine. it actually fits on the bottom CD shelf perfectly right above the dedicated AC outlet and right next to the conduit outlet for the interconnect.

until the cables arrive i won't be able to listen......that should be by mid-week hopefully.

mikelavigne May 20, 2007 15:11

Mike,
Interesting to hear you want to go for multi-channel. Which speakers and amp will you use for the other channels?
How are you making the switch from stereo to multi-channel? unplugging and plugging cables or using the Dart pre as a switch?
I am asking this as I have a similar problem. I have currently my HT system (Klipsch RF7, RC7, RS7) in my living room. When the MM3 will arrive, I will have the choice to keep both systems separate but in the same room (but will be quite crowded to have both the MM3 and the RF7 on the front of the room...), or I take away the RF7, use them in another room and use also the MM3 as L/R speaker in HT mode. Problem is how do I switch from stereo to HT mode without changing speaker cable? (I will be using the Dart amp directly fed by the APL NWO2.5T CD player, so no pre-amp). Anybody has any idea of a way to do it (w/o deteriorating sound quality)?
thanks

stereotaipei May 20, 2007 07:44

hi Charles, you and Don are most welcome to join Scott and Suresh on Sunday. i will e-mail you the info. i remember your visit a few years back.....it was a fun time. Larry and i have tried to get together a few times but something always comes up.

i would enjoy hearing your impressions of the changes......and just listening. i'm in the midst of adding multi-channel to the 2-channel room; but unfortunately i won't have the required cables until next week.

see ya Sunday.

mikelavigne May 19, 2007 03:34

Hi Mike, I came out a year or two (my memory's fading but my hearing's still good) ago with friends Larry and Don (from Seattle). your system was quite different then. I recently sold my Guarneris to Suresh who said he might be planning a visit this sunday with Scott. i was hoping to get an invite as well (Don and I) to see and hear all your new stuff.if this works for you let me know what time to arrive and brief directions. Thanks. Regards, Charles

carloskatz May 19, 2007 00:40

Mike,
Thank you for the invitation. If I do visit her I surely would contact you.
You truly are a gentleman!
Roger

rwcmacc May 17, 2007 00:26

RWC, when you innocently visit your sister in Seattle in late June, you are welcome to stop by. e-mail me and i'll provide info if you like.

mikelavigne May 16, 2007 13:43

Videoht: If the 10M only outputs a 10MHz signal, then I stand corrected. I've tried to call the company over the last few days to ask questions and possibly order a unit, but no response...

bigamp May 15, 2007 19:43

Very impressive system regardless of how many chairs you have!
Nothing like good music, friends and a nice single malt. I need to visit you,,,,, I mean my sister in Seattle.

rwcmacc May 15, 2007 19:18

Dear Bigamp, Thank for your information on Antelope 10M. Did you notice that Antelope 10M alone can't generate 44.1, 96, or 192 KHz clock signal, instead it just generate 10 MHz reference clock for Antelope OCX or OCX-V. In the end, you need to at least by one Antelope OCX and one Antelope 10M, total cost is USD 1,595 (OCX) plus USD 2,200 (10M) = USD 3,800. But one question, on OCX, the freqency divider circuit board just claims only 1 ppm accuracy Vs 0.1ppm accuracy on Esoteric G-03X which one do you prefer. I think it depends on you to judge whether the investment of USD 2,000 more for 0.1 ppm accuracy is worth or not. That's why I would like to tell you that Rubidium clock is one thing, excellent frequency divider circuit is the other thing. Rubidium clock alone can't give you an accuracy of 0.00005ppm at 44.1 KHz.

Anyway, I recommend you to try and test by yourself to see the difference in sound quality between Antelope and Esoteric. I would like to know the result also. :)

videoht May 15, 2007 19:14