Mike, I'm not a vinyl guy either (at least not yet), however I am a little confused here. If the point was that 5 of 5 personal music choices in ones own system could be distinguished between digital and vinyl playback and the miss fell on nr 3 then what does that demonstrate? In Mike's own system, room, musical choice...lapse of concentration, maybe Mike as you said you took this challenge as a no-brainer. However you don't seem to me as a guy that doesn't take care of the smaller details and proper due diligence when it comes to a personal quest. The reviews you have done in the past, the answers on your own setup and its journey since 1994. Now, I've heard vinyl too, and I am convinced its better than any digital I've ever heard when in direct comparison. Nonetheless, if you were not able to easily distinguish in at least one occasion of six personally chosen pieces (which he must have heard hundreds of times). Than that is to me indicative of digital being damn close to vinyl...at least in your room. And, that confirmed by "three or four others try the test and they missed every single one...". Whaow, that means that they thought they heard vinyl and it was actually digital...? As a budding audiophile I'm pretty confused now...I was saving up for a vinal rig...maybe I should wait until the Memory Player technology becomes mainstream...

Maybe I'm full of it, and I shouldn't ask all these questions. But I admire you and I'd like your opinion, digital vs vinyl, open and clear, pro's and con's.

best of regards
Henry

mtkhl567 July 09, 2007 00:23

Mike..I am not a vinyl guy (not due to sound quality but storage, flexibility, convenience etc) however 5 out of 6...is demonstrative enough.

henryhk July 06, 2007 11:06

Henry, thanks for the kind words about the Challenge.

at some point i may go back and complete my impressions of the event. i don't want to be accused of 'sour grapes'......but i am confident that if i had done even a small amount of practice with the methodology we used for the blind testing that i would not have 'missed' the 1 out of 6 that i did. i simply did not take proper care to be thorough....and got a bit cocky and distracted.

i must say that i disagree with your comment;

If anything it surely shows that at the pinacle of music reproduction, digital and vinyl are very close indeed.

in fact; i believe the opposite.......that the higher the resolution the more obvious the differences. anyone present in the room for the test had no problem hearing the difference sighted......it was quite obvious.....the vinyl was lots better.

OTOH; a blind test presents a different and un-familiar environment....and it was my mistake to not take it more seriously. we had three or four others try the test and they missed every single one......even after hearing the differences clearly when sighted.

mikelavigne July 06, 2007 06:27

Jake; my wife is so supportive and understanding....i am very lucky. but i did stretch the bounds of her support when i explained i was paying for John's plane ticket.....and then i told her 'and by the way.....we will be hosting 25 people here for two days'.

in the end, she enjoyed meeting everyone and had a great time.

then yesterday i mentioned i paid the audioasylum $250 for losing the bet.

but she is already over it (it did not hurt that i worked in the yard all weekend and also yesterday helping her).

she tried to get me to promise i would never again pay for someone's plane fare i had never met for an audio contest.

i just smiled.

mikelavigne July 06, 2007 05:57

thanks Larry and Rhirsch for your support.

Lox just does his thing every month or so to get a bit of attention.

as Azjake says; he is just a garden variety troll not worth fretting about.....and likely best ignored.

mikelavigne July 06, 2007 05:46

Rhirsch,Don't waste your time, this person can't even form sentences!
That's why Mike does not lower himself
"F-1 cars and girl's"......Yah ,maybe when he returns the keys to them after they run it through the carwash! :)
His mentor is probabely Romy the cat...

azjake July 06, 2007 01:13

Loxodrome's response to me via email...

"...TO: Rhirsch

sucks your stuff. i spent my times with F-1 cars and girls while you dumdums have soso $ for nothing

loxo... "

Am I the only one here that doesn't understand why one's hobby/passion would inspire such vitriolic reactions?

rhirsch July 05, 2007 22:55

Loxodrome... who are you to sit in judgement?

His dreams AND how he goes about realizing them is personal and should not have to endure yours' or anyone elses criticism.

rhirsch July 05, 2007 16:24

.
Loxodrome,
.
Have you nothing better to do ? Have you ever read anyone writing in support of your posts ?
.
Please go away.
.
Rgds,
Larry
.

cello July 05, 2007 03:42

Life is to short to have 25+ sit on your one-seat chair analog/digital barn boy competition with your family locked up in the family house. REDRUM REDRUM

Take care and don't let stuff get in the way of your dreams.

loxodrome July 04, 2007 19:48

Mike, I'm in complete admiration! You called the challenge, you conceded that you lost by missing the third recording, and with the grace that only true gentlemen are bestowed with.

Disregard perhaps the momentary laps of concentration at that moment, the discussions around the gear, process, technical topologies etc. If anything it surely shows that at the pinacle of music reproduction, digital and vinyl are very close indeed.

It was very informative to read about the challenge and I'm sure that everyone involved grew,learned and had pleanty fun.

Again: BRAVO ;-)
Henry

mtkhl567 July 02, 2007 00:30

Mike,
All i can say is that i vote for your wife to attain "sainthood" while here on earth!
She must be patient,understanding, supportive and be happy just knowing your happy in this hobby...
Surely the one "component" you could never replace:)
Hope all is well up north!
Warmly,
Azjake

azjake July 01, 2007 20:43

sorry i have been absent this past week. in some ways it has been a 'audio dream' week. last Friday and Saturday i had 25+ people at my home for the 'Challenge'. then Tuesday night i had some audio friends visit for listening till almost midnight. Wednesday night was the big 'Home Theater' event at Definitive Audio here in the Seattle area. then Thursday night i visited a local audio friend for listening and dinner. thru the whole week i was dealing with 'on-line' fallout from the challenge.

in any case, i'll try to catch up here.

Paul; yes, the Event from last weekend was great fun and a good time was had by all. the discussion on the vinyl forum, as you are no doubt aware of, spiraled down into a serious case of denial and rationalization by John Elision. after a bit, John did back away from his rationalizations somewhat and we had a degree of closure.

for those that may be curious; this Event was a Challenge by me that i could tell in a Blinded test, the difference between the direct sound of my vinyl and a recording John would make of that vinyl on my system.....5 out of 5 times.

the result was that i picked my direct vinyl 5 out of 6 times Blinded. i conceded that John won the bet; and John acknowledged that the difference between his recordings and my direct vinyl was easily heard and the direct vinyl was clearly better.

for the record; John is a Classic Objectivist Engineer who believes strongly that PCM can accuratly record vinyl. i am admittedly a subjectivist who thinks that digital has no chance to replicate vinyl at the top of the food chain.

fast forward to Wednesday; John posted his thoughts; which basically refuted the results due to 'issues' with the darTZeel preamp.

John's original post

when i finally saw it here was my reaction.

My reaction

i did not post again until about 100 posts later when John finally softened his stance on whether there were supporting facts for his position.

John's post and my response

for a humerous viewpoint on John's reaction look at this.

what John did

i had started a detailed explaination of the event itself which i have not finished. if you want the details.....

my take

another related thread.

more stuff

*****************

anyway; now you can see why i haven't been around....and i also had a very busy week at work.

mikelavigne June 30, 2007 19:59

Mtkhl567 and Henry,
I spent two hours comparing the AR Ref 210-Ref 3 with the SPectral DMA250 fed by a Spectral preamp (don't remember the number), feeding a pair of Magico Mini.
It is true that the Spectral was comparatively much more detailed and dynamic, but on the other side, the sound was too cold and missing "soul". Bottom line,I was not fully satisfied by neither of them.... and ended up buying a Dartzeel!

stereotaipei June 30, 2007 03:24

Mtkhl567, re speed of AR...well it was only an 1 hr of listening so you may be right, but I didn't notice it personally...perhaps if I have another extended session but I feel no need to as I am extremely happy with my Dartgear. I did try Wilson-Spectral a couple of times and was not my cup of tea. the beauty of tone, timbre was simply lost IMO. By the way, nice set up u got there. Those Strads are beautiful.

henryhk June 30, 2007 00:06

Hi Mike! You have a very, very nice system in an exceptionally well-thought out room! I'm so jealous. I'm only 19 at the moment but got very interested in hifi last year when my dad bought a decent starter rig. We're currently using an Esoteric X-03SE, Chord mid-range pre/power amps and JMLabs Diva Utopia Be. Cable-wise, we're not using anything special and something Mihalis said a few posts above interested me. He basically said that the differences between cables is best observed in very sensitive, high-end systems. Now I wouldn't say our system is low-end; It sounds great, but light-years below yours and Mihalis's in terms of sophistication. I am interested in getting speaker and interconnect cable upgrades, do you think I (or you) would really be able to hear the difference despite my rig being not particularly high end? When was it that you realised, "wow, cables really do make a difference!"? Thanks a lot and may you have many hours of happy listening to come!

milkpowder June 29, 2007 14:09

Henry,
I listened to the Model 6 at the same dealer as you (HK I am assuming...). It is true they are great. I got in Taiwan an amazing deal on one pair but decided not to go for it as I imagined how painful it was going to be to move such big pieces of aluminum every time I move in a new flat... I ended up buying MM3 as at least you can cut them in 3 when you transport them... (they arrive in 3 weeks...)

I heard Mike's MM3 a few months ago. Was for me at the same level of performance as the Model 6. Question is how much is coming from the great room he has... When I listened for example to the VS VR11 in the same dealer room as the model 6, I was very disappointed, so I am sure that the Model 6 would sound even better in a better treated room. In Mike's room, would it be better than MM3? possible...
Anyway, I already recommended to Mike to listen to the Model 6 when I visited him.

stereotaipei June 29, 2007 05:14

Henry, I heard the same gear on Wilson Watt/Puppy 7 speakers. And I was amazed by the detail, imaging, soundstage, but the dynamics and speed were suboptimal...to me unacceptable. Isn't it strange how there can be such differing experiences with similar setups? Not that the Wilson is in the same league as the Magico 6, but still. The AR stuff was a full beat slower than for example the top Spectral gear I compared it with. Just my 2 cts.

mtkhl567 June 29, 2007 02:33

Hey Mike, don't know if you have tried them but I was at a dealer the other day,testing some home theatre stuff but noticed the much talked about Magico Model 6's...so obviously couldn't resist and had impromptu hour of listening. Rest of gear was all Audio Rsch Ref gear, CD7, Ref 3 and the top of line 610Ts, with MIT cable. All unfamiliar with me, spacious room like yours. Simply amazing. Jaw dropping. Far too big in size for my rooms, and pricey as hell. BUT GOOD GOD, it was the best system I have heard in my own experience period. Inspiring.

henryhk June 28, 2007 14:33

I had and testet a lot of variety cables,(with variety speaker) and I can say for sure: Transparent MM line cables are realy top level.
Lobnik.

lobnik June 27, 2007 14:46

Hi Mike - I saw all the discussion over at Audio Asylum vinyl forum, so no need to repeat here. Sounds like a fun time, and an interesting test.

thanks,

paul

paul99 June 27, 2007 13:40

I would add an opinion on cables. I have been a skeptic for a long time. However, in the last couple of years, I upgraded my system to the highest levels such as Gryphon Poseidon speakers, wavac, mbl amps, and all kinds of tube and ss preamps. The fact is that as the quality of the equipment (and importantly room treatment and even digital equalization) increased, I started being more able to identify cables. I recently spent a lot of time listening, both blind and not, to single and bi amped configurations of Valhalla and Jorma Prime cables (and to a lesser extend the Indra). The differences were obvious to me and other audiophiles, both between the two brands and also in the case of the Primes between bi wiring and single. In fact, one of my friends could identify quite accurately which configuration we were using while outside the room. I will say again that prior to taking good care of power, treatments and eventually equipment, I was not able to identify these as clearly, if at all. I know that goes against the view that one can always hear good cables but I am simply describing my experience. I invest my money very carefully in audio equipment and I am well aware of the power of the placebo effect. However, in this case the differences were quite obvious and therefore I took the plunge and bought my very first new cable set (I always liked to pay for used). If there is any conclusion to be drawn is that in my view well made cables can affect sound. I assume that is system dependent and matching matters. There are explanations for all that relating to impendance, ability to keep out RF noise, and I am sure other things that we know and dont know about (such as the electical feedback process in any audio system, especially related to DC/AC conversion, leakage and the like). I actually dont know why it would be so controversial that cables, which represent one of the longest pathways for electrical signal, might affect sound, either directly or by acting as antennas. Now, whether the differences or production costs justify the unbelievable prices is a totally different matter...

mihalis June 26, 2007 12:38

Fendergibs; thanks for the answer to some of my questions.

since you have now described your the listening basis for your comments i do understand a bit more where you are coming from. and i have a few comments.

as your last reference of cable performance is now 14 years old i think you would agree that a few things have changed since then.

in 1993 the top level Transparent Audio cable was the 'Ultra' level. then in 1994 Transparent introduced Reference level, and soon after Reference XL. soon after i became an audiophile in 1994 i did purchase Transparent Ultra cables. then 2 years later i purchased Transparent Reference XL......which were my 'reference' until i purchased Opus speaker cables in 2000...the Opus interconnect came out a couple of years later.

i can tell you that cable performance has come a long way from the Ultra 14 years ago.

an even bigger thing than cable performance increases is the increased resolution of gear. sources, preamps, amps, speakers, power conditioners, isolation shelves, and room acoustics have all made small issues like cable performance become a much larger part of overall system performance.

simply; if a 14 year old listening experience is the basis for your strongly held opinion; then you are simply mis-informed about reality.

bring your 'generic' cable over to my home and we'll see whether i can pick it out 10 out of 10 times from my cables. the bones of many a cable disbeliver litter my yard. what you will say after you visit is that you agree that cables can make a positive difference in system performance but that they are not worth the price difference. i would not have a problem with that since that is a matter of priorities....not facts.

mikelavigne June 26, 2007 06:53

Mike,

My backgound: Medical Physician trained at Georgetown Medical school well versed in clinical trials and the value of the placebo effect as well as statistical analaysis as I read clincal studies every day.

Audio: worked at the first high end audio store in the USA The Music Box in Wellesley MA opened in 1929 to 1997 (owner retired) sold everything from Rotel to Mark Levinson Sota Transpaent MIT Audioquest ect
Testing: in main listing room on flagship system Mark Levinson top line (at the time) double blinded tests on same system matching vol with digital Db meter, same source for each test. Panel 5 experienced audiophile professionals with total of 120 yrs of experience, we compared entry level to top line only b/c this would highlight any differences if any.
Results:
interconnect No diffence could be reliable predicted under blind conditions that is more than chance would accout for score ranged from 48% to 55% from best to worse

speakers wire: more varibilty here with half the group scoring 65 to 75% thus possibly significant

power power cords/conditioners: 43% to 51% as perdicited no diffence between stock power cords and 600$ ones (this is real area of snake oil )if you believe this one go back to physics 101 & I have a bridge to sell ya.

Our above testing preformed in Feb 1993 is not statisticaly sig because we needed more people to improve its power. In any event this was done with a group of people who are all "golden ears" so dont retort with the same old "well you cant hear the difference because you lack the listing skills" while that mabey true for the general population that is clearly not the case here.
I think any objective person would say my opinion has some credence behind it not to be dismissed as you noted.

As for your experience it sounds like your mind playing the placebo effect on you ie the fancy cable HAS to sound better so it does, try identifing diffences blindly and if you can do it 75% you would prove me wrong. Can you say "Tice Clock" google that one for the king of placebo devices. Stick with the physics and reality not fancy marking & nonsensical explanations ie "the electrons flow better". These Item are pushed by all high end retail store b/c they have the HIGHEST MARGIN (I know I worked at one) Take care & Enjoy your otherwise fantastic system. Rob M.D. Ps please forgive the typo(s)

fendergibs June 25, 2007 21:20

Hi Mike -

Sure love to hear about the results of your experiment.

Also, I did not notice in the "challenge'' post, were the digital recordings burned to a CDR for playback, or played back from some sort of digital recorder (HD, tape, or computer)?

thanks,

paul

paul99 June 25, 2007 20:31