hi Stan,

yes; as i mentioned i have purchased a few pre-recorded tapes on ebay. i have not yet had time to listen to any yet on my system though. looking at the variety of 50's, 60's and 70's prerecorded tapes on ebay......much of the music is not too appealing in musical terms (lots of easy listening). i'm sure there are plenty of gems......but so far i've not seen many. and the most popular titles bring some big bucks. it is hard to just take a stab in the dark without more research and listening on my part.

the level of sonic quality of tape playback is quite varible with many factors involved. many of these 20-40 year old machines are needing lots of work in many areas. parts avaliblity is a big problem as is finding a competent tech. there are issues of tape condition and storage environment. issues of tape EQ and format. and these are just a few of the issues.

that is why i am focusing on 'The Tape Project'. i can have a machine adjusted and tweaked to optimize those tapes. they will be brand new. on those particular tapes i should get optimal performance. i plan on using my ATR-102 for 'The Tape Project' tapes....and the Technics RS-1500 for the pre-recorded tapes i purchase.

as far as which of those tapes on ebay are worth buying; i don't yet consider myself qualified to say. i suppose it would depend somewhat on the quality of one's vinyl playback system. if you have lots of Lps why purchase tapes that are equal or less good sounding?....unless it is very special music.

i have read that at any speed (even 1 7/8th ips--casette) analog tape has a certain magic that is unique. i have no way to say whether or not that is true at this point.

there are some tape-heads out there that do have a very good handle on these issues. i don't want to offer advice or opinions until i have lots more experience.

it may sound like tapes are not worth it. i can say they are not 'plug' and 'play'.

mikelavigne September 22, 2007 00:38

Hi Mike, I'm curious if you have looked into some of the vintage analog tape that can be found for sale on ebay? Apparently, back in the 1960's and 1970's, along with making prerecorded albums, 8 track tapes and cassette tapes, recording studios made prerecorded reel-to-reel tapes too. I noticed that the reel-to-reel box looked just like the album cover. For example, I saw the Beatles "White Album". The only snag with this type of tape is that most were recorded at 3 3/4 fps. I didn't notice any 7.5 fps or 15 fps tape for sale. Still, since you have a reel-to-reel already, it might be worth a look. I think that you're right about analog tape being better than album, if it's been recorded as a master tape or recorded directly from the master tape. Best regards, Stan

talon4 September 21, 2007 22:51

Aaron,

thanks...and i hope all is well with you.

re; Sirius III compared to the Caliburn. i think any possible performance advantage the Caliburn has over the Rockport is marginal compared to how much better a master tape can be. i've listened to the Caliburn 3 times at shows and i think there are trade-offs to some degree. the Rockport seems a bit more tonally perfect and rock-solid pace-wise (Direct-drive perfect speed verses a belt and linear tracking arm verses a pivitod design) and the Caliburn seems to have a bit more detail and texture (newer isolation technology and maybe a better arm). admittedly; these are preliminary conclusions based on my limited exposure. i do agree that overall the Caliburn does get the nod.....but not by a huge amount.

OTOH a high quality master tape played on a SOTA tape machine has everything better. think about it.....no Lp can be as good as it's source (other than direct-to-disc--and that is debatable). what i have heard from my limited exposure to 15 ips master tapes is stunning.

obviously; the big advantage here is choice of software; almost unlimited for vinyl and very limited for tape. so it may be that the best vinyl may overall be very close as far as tapes i may be able to listen to in my room. that is the big question.

when you talk to tape-heads they say how much better tape is than vinyl.....but few if any have a Rockport (or Caliburn, Walker, SME 30, etc.) to compare it with. so i will have to draw my own conclusions.

we will see how reality compares to my expectations.

mikelavigne September 20, 2007 13:32

Hi Mike,

Great to hear that you have been enjoying life outside of audio for a while, something that many of us forget to do from time to time.

Interesting that you are going down the analog tape path (no pun intended), I am sure it will be very rewarding.

I am a little surprised by your comment regarding the perceived subtle differences between the Rockport and Continuum Caliburn turntables but since we are unlikely to ever hear both under familiar conditions for a shootout we can only ever hedge our bets. In that regard my own personal gut feeling is that the Caliburn/Cobra combo would at least split the difference between your Rockport and the master tape. All of this is pure speculation of course based on what I know about both products from a technical standpoint and from some visits/discussions with Continuum.

I do applaud you for seeking out the ultimate format for new source material.

As always I look forward to your new adventures in this crazy hobby.

Take care and all the best,
Aaron

drajreynolds September 20, 2007 07:03

Hi Jean (Keyarae),

sorry for the delay in my response.

the best digital player i have heard is the EMM Labs SE.....CDSD and DAC6. but i have not really heard many of the latest digital players. i strongly prefer the EMM Labs over the DV-60 or any Esoteric for that matter. OTOH i have not heard all the latest models. i have heard that some Esoteric models do not covert DSD to PCM.....as they use to.

i think any of the digital machines you list would be an upgrade over your Marantz. the EMM Labs CDSA might possibly be in your price range and is likely on a higher level of performance than those others.

i am likely not the best person at this time to get a good idea of how things stack up among the digital contenders. in mid October i will be going to the RMAF in Denver and may hear some of the newer players there.

sorry i cannot be of more help.

mikelavigne September 20, 2007 04:45

Correction; the Ampex tape machine is an ATR-102 (not RTA-102)....sorry.

mikelavigne September 20, 2007 04:09

so why would i be intersted in analog tape?

have you ever heard a master tape?

over the last year i have felt strongly that my path toward system maturity was coming to a good place. not that there is not potential improvements to be made here and there but more that those potential steps are tiny enough that i no longer have that as a main focus. after three years in the new room i have come to where i was trying to get to.

now i can really get back to where my main focus was prior to building the new room.....which was the continual enjoyment of new music and expanding my musical horizons. first; i looked over some of the vinyl that i have missed over the last few years and ordered some of it (i can only spend so much at a time). next; i built the room with adding multi-channel in mind......so i added multi-channel. i also ordered all the RCA and Mercury SACD re-issues.....wonderful!

which gets me to analog tape. i have heard master tapes a few times at audio shows. as good as i consider my best vinyl to sound.....the best master tapes i have heard sound 'some' better. i say some because i have not heard master tapes in a familiar system. in the past i have ignored tape due to the lack of software avalibility; but.....there is now something called 'The Tape Project'.....which offers master tapes for sale. they are not cheap; but i have signed up for a subscription for the first year (i'm number 34 Charter subscriber).

The Tape Project

i have purchased a few pre-recorded tapes off ebay; and have purchased a used Technics RS-1500 reel to reel machine.....and......a completely rebuilt Ampex RTA-102 (i'll have in a month or so).

i have spent a good deal of time over the last 5 or 6 weeks researching analog tape......and i am still pretty clueless on most tape issues (i do not consider myself able to answer any tape questions).

the first master tapes should arrive from my subscription in the next month or so.

so why tape?

i had considered buying the Caliburn tt......but it is likely not too much different than my Rockport.

but 15 ips master tapes.......ya baby!!!!

recorded music simply does not get better.....and likely never will. and i want to hear that in my room.

mikelavigne September 20, 2007 04:03

Lox old buddy.....did ya miss me?

how sweet. but you didn't need to shout....as i was just over here. anyway.....you are a good troll and i missed you for sure.

yes; i've been gone...........on business trips (2) and vacations (2).....i've spent quite a few hours messing with my multi-channel......and more recently i've been investigating analog tape. work has been particularly hectic and for awhile there i was spending lots of time watching my beloved Seattle Mariner's (major league Baseball for those not aquainted).....although since they went in the tank a couple of weeks ago i can't watch them any more. yes.....surprisingly enough there is life other than audio (although i've had quite a few audio visitors over the last few months).

in any case it's been over 2 months since i posted here and i'll try to catch up.

regarding my multi-channel; i've finally got all the bits and pieces together.

i got one set of short (.6m) Valhalla XLR for between my DAC6 SE and my Switchman III (for the phantom center and the subwoofer channel). i had been using a borrowed cheap set of XLR cables there and a set of Valhalla on my front left and right channels. the problem was that the cheap center channel cable really compromised any center channel content. much better 'phantom center' content now.

i added a power cord (Custom made 18" long with Acrolink 6N-P4030 bulk cable and Oyaide P-004 plug and C-004 IEC) on each Murano Digital amp for my rear channels along with the Audience Adept Response aR1p power conditioners (they are single channel and plug into the wall outlet). i choose these products because i have a space issue; my Murano amps are on the bottom of my CD shelves and the power outlet (with the Oyaide RS-1 outlet)is right underneath this shelf less than 4 inches away. so i needed a very short power cord and also wanted some sort of power grid isolation on each cord like my Jena Labs Fundamental One.....primarly so the noise from the Murano amps does not backfill into my power grid.

i also purchased a set of Acoustic Zen Matrix System II 1m XLR for the rear surround channels between the DAC6 SE and the Switchman III.

i was using some cheap 'almost zip cord' speaker cables for my rear channels. again, a space issue as the speakers are right next to the amps. so i have custom Acrolink 18" long speaker cables using bulk 6N-S1040II cable with Oyaide SPYT spade lugs. i also have a set of jumpers with the same cable and spades. everything is heat-sink wrapped and fits my space perfectly.

so now logistically the rear speakers/amps are as unobtrusive as possible in my room and have proper power and speaker cable support.....and they sound a good deal better as far as refinement, dynamics and detail.....very natural sounding. i have done no A/B'ing with these power cables, the Adept Response, or the speaker cables....so i cannot offer any specific opinion on how these individual pieces may work exactly. maybe later i'll get a chance to do that.

i might add that i've really enjoyed listening to multi-channel; i have to change the cable arrangment to listen to multi-channel so when i change it i will listen to only multi-channel for a few days straight. i have choosen to have much smaller (less bass extension and dynamics) rear channel speakers due to;

1-wanting small size and footprint in the rear to minimize the intrusion into my room culture.
2-i only want ambient content with my vision of multi-channel. i am not interested in 'stuff' happening behind me or sitting in the middle of an orchestra or chior. i still enjoy those mixes but not as much as the more natural ones.

sorry to admit i have not yet really optimized my pair of JL Audio f113 Fathom subwoofers. i did spend some time making a few more adjustments to the gain, crossover and phase so they are quite a bit closer than they were.....but i have not pulled out the RTA yet or used the auto set-up feature. OTOH they sound really quite amazing and now integrate pretty good. i am always disappointed when a multi-channel recording does not have LFE content.

no....i still have not tried to integrate the f113's with my MM3's in 2-channel mode.

mikelavigne September 20, 2007 03:24

HELLO HELLO MIKE = YOU STILL THERE?
DO WE NEED TO WORRY?

LOXO

loxodrome September 19, 2007 17:45

Any recommendation on a cd player, I plan on upgrading my marantz Sa8260 To either Esoteric SA60, PLinius cd 101, Cary 303/300 or maybe even the Wadia player, not New of course, I been trying to built my system over time, by upgrading pieces after pieces, I’m looking to sound, details, mid, bass, you know the WOW thing, so suggestions are welcome
Regards
Jean

keyarae September 15, 2007 05:46

What you think about the esoteric SA60 over EMM lab player, I been thinking about purchasing SA60..... Witch do you recommend?

keyarae September 11, 2007 04:20

I just posted pictures of my own MM3-Dartzeel-APL NWO2.5T system. Spent 2 weekends tweaking speakers and finding the sweet spot. Speaker and CD player are still burning in (only 130hours so far), but the sound is already great (in particular after extensive room treatment with realtraps). Only complaint I have is that several pop-rock CDs sound terrible: too much highs and harsh voices. But my RTA analysis shows a completely flat response. Mike, do you experience the same problem? Does it mean that a lot of pop CDs are recorded with too much emphasis of highs?
I listen mainly to Jazz and Classical anyway...

stereotaipei September 02, 2007 08:12

Dear Mr. Loxodrome, please recall the wisdom conveyed by the bumper sticker- "mean people suck". Mr.Lavigne deserves to be treated with the same respect that you would want to receive.
OTOH, i do have to re-emphasize that half the work of achieving the most satisfying experience in listening to recorded music involves "letting go", or putting aside concerns you might have about the endless electronic and mechanical limitations that are always going to exist anyway.
as one graduate student i used to know in college would state- that, through careful research "science will be able to uncover ALL the answers to ALL the questions". perhaps he was right, but not in his lifetime, or his great-great grandchildren's. so each of us must at some point come to grips with, whether it's the house we live in, the car we drive, or our diamond-encrusted speaker system, how much is it enough?
TWO THINGS I WANT TO KNOW- #1- what records, cd's, and tapes people find most inspiring and enjoyable, and why. it doesn't matter if you have a $100,000 plus stereo system or you heard it on a radio broadcast. i am on the hunt for new stuff, and as much as i love Mozart, Bach, Handel, and Vivaldi, i need to explore new areas and new sounds. and hopefully (but not necessarily), i want the recordings to be revealing enough so i can hear everything clearly, so i can enjoy it on my (fairly decent) system.
NUMERO #2- i do have a nagging concern regarding my EMM DCC2SE preamp/dac-
should i seriously consider sending it off to be modified, adding blackgate caps and other upgraded parts? some people have subtly hinted that the preamp section is a bit dry sounding. i describe the sound as "VERY neutral", not necessarily thin sounding but not harmonically rich either. like i said, NEUTRAL SOLID STATE/JUST THE FACTS. the dac section otoh is excellent and gets the notes right, both accurately and musically.
this is not an inexpensive component, and the thought that EMM labs could have used (quite a few) better-quality parts is somewhat unsettling (not that i think about it all that often as i have more important stuff on my mind). So, i don't care that it's not the nicest looking preamp; if they saved a few bucks on the design, i can live with that. But it's what's inside that "should be" designed and modified by a group of engineers with some "trained ears" weighing in on the results.

french_fries August 17, 2007 13:39

French Fries,

At last, some start to think!!!But it seems the Europeans are the one's leading the way.

Have fun and share the wonderfull experience of musical expression.

loxodrome August 17, 2007 04:41

The 50ohm interconnects are inside of them. Do they reduce coupling / interference with the power and speaker cables? Looks like something I'd be interested in.... Thanks!

cathode August 14, 2007 13:59

French fries, I love your suggestion of new threat name, one French vote for it! (and btw your post really made me laugh)

In the meantime, I have been going to the gym everyday for the past 2 weeks, to get prepared for the reception of the 1900lbs of MM3 crates this Sunday... with my wife asking my every week why I didn't buy the Magico Mini (only thing she is interested in is that they are much smaller...). Anybody has a friend champion of weightlifting in Tokyo? (...)

We don't see a lot of posts from Mike this days: I bet he spends his time enjoying his new bass set up on the MM3 and his multi channel configuration. Btw Mike, which one do you prefer: stereo or multi? After more than 6 weeks of listening to multichannel , do you recommend the investment over stereo? Are you still missing bass in stereo on the MM3?
Besides, do you have any recommendation in term of initial setup for the MM3?
It will take time to optimize and stabilize everything: in less than 2 weeks I received my APL NWO2.5T, 29 Mondo traps and now the MM3...

stereotaipei August 13, 2007 13:10

mike lavigne is one of the most generous people/audiophiles i know, and personally called me to help me set up my von schweikert vr-9se's. we talked and wrote on other occasions as well. however, mr. loxodrome's point can be taken in a couple of different ways, aside from being Mr. Sour Grapes.
OTOH, i do recognize his point about taking the time to "really listen" to what THE MUSICIANS are doing on a recording (after you've tweaked your equipment ad nauseum)- this requires patience and concentration, like meditating (or studying organic chemistry).
drinking single malts, flipping through the absolute sound, wondering about this or that tube, power cord, a better speaker, the mark-2 version of your mark-1, or watching the lights blink on your amplifiers, are not going to get you to the promised land. alot of times i myself think my stereo is just making sophisticated noises, even after spending obscene amounts of money (i too have those accursed opus cables). friday morning was different though. a big veil lifted- probably a brain clot dissolved relieving a psycho-neuro-blockage (rather than the purity of the electricity coming from the wall), while listening to Handel string concertos (on an ordinary redbook cd). i was HEARING what those guys were doing; i could FEEL what they were feeling. i was grateful that i was able to make the connection- it doesn't happen all that often. even though i feel my equipment is doing its job, and that i'm reasonably satisfied evolving and upgrading my system, that extra dimension, that special mood, only comes around when i am "ready" to experience it. this takes some Mental-House-Cleaning for me, to get rid of the pops and clicks cluttering up my brain.
BTW, this thread is so long my computer (or audiogon's server) is having trouble viewing it! may i suggest that you start a new system thread called "please don't take me too siriusly"?? i would really appreciate it.
MY most sincere wish for myself and others is that we're having fun and making the most of our time listening to the music.

french_fries August 12, 2007 06:53

Hi Mike
This is the wonderfull selection with no doubt!
You changed Exquisites for MM3. I never heard the latter, but they resemble Grand Exquisites to some degree. Are they better?
As you know I am using Tenor OTL at present. You owned both OTL, Hybrid, and now Dart. I am seriously considering to move from Tenor at some stage due to complete lack of support from both CDF and newly re-defunct Tenor.
How was Dard with Kharmas in comparison to OTL.
Thanks for responce on my site.
I am moving to Stealth cables at present.
Regards
Alex

aleksandersloboda August 01, 2007 15:23

Hi Mike,You are Sirius!I caught your response to Frontiers question regarding burn in time for Nordost Valhalla dated 07-20-07.I thought I have a quick look at your system and ended up reading quite abit of the responses.I marveled at your room and equiptment.....I have a modest system which we enjoy very much,its well thought out and its the best that I can afford.I do hear music through it especially now when I made the switch over to Nordost wire in my tonearm through to my speakers.Valhalla used as tonearm wire is a incredible evolutionary step forward in analog play back.Along with the Nordost Thor and Nordost a.c. cords using this wire through out my system has left me with the belief that wire is as important as anything eles in the audio change including the room its set up in.It simply revealed the true voice of my system were other brands of wire unknown to me at the time had a corruptive effect on this tiny fragile signal from my cartridge.I'm very happy with what I'm hearing from my system.I'm off the path of tweaks and upgrades.Even my wife that has aways claimed she has tin ears easily hears an enormous difference.Now she knows what I,m taking about. This wire may not work in everyones system,it sure works in mine. Mark

stiltskin July 31, 2007 15:09

Mike, I found the link for the test CD: http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm.
I have a question for you: you seem to like your EMM Labs transport a lot: did you ever get a chance to compare it to the Wadia 861 SE player?
Thanks, Joel

jfd01 July 22, 2007 23:28

Mike, what a fantastic system (and room) you have! I realize I'm responding to a very old thread here, but you were wondering back then about test tones below 20Hz, and I thought I would let you know that you can find test tones down to 10Hz at the Realtraps website (www.realtraps.com). I downloaded it some time ago so I don't remember exactly where it is on their site, but it's in there somewhere (10-300Hz). Best, Joel

jfd01 July 22, 2007 20:40

Henry: My feelings are on record (NPI). I think digital (DSD) is probably more accurate to the original recording, but I find analog more enjoyable. There is a greater sense of ease, naturalness and immediacy along with greater dynamics with good analog that is hard to beat.

Thank you for your nice comment!

jtinn July 13, 2007 20:48

Jtinn, Mike, thanks a lot for taking the time to provide above clarifications!

Jtinn, I agree with you about the fun factor. And as evidenced by the many posts and visits of Mike's system, all are in extreme awe when confronted with the extreme high audiphile playback in "the barn". Most brands of which you represend as importer/manufacturer, which in turns says something about you as an audiophile equipment provider. Hat off.

Mike, thank you for elaborating on the circumstances of the challenge. And as was described, it must have been highly challenging indeed. Not having been in the same situation as you its difficult to judge its various distractions and their intensity, and I appologize for the somewhat bluntness of my probing. However, may I ask your opinion on the strengths and weaknesses of each (analogue vs digital playback) in general. You have both, probably among the best available today, in your system. I'm personally a great fan of the real silence/blackness that digital playback can provide, I've never heard that in from a record player. Vinyl I've heard though has more realness, musicality, micro dynamics, but I dislike hearing the needle/groove, the dust, the pops (as jtinn mentioned above). Not to mention the significantly higher cost of purchase, maintenance and wear.

Would you and/or jtinn care to comment?

Have a good weekend, with no doubt some great music!
Most respectfully,
Henry

mtkhl567 July 13, 2007 11:40

Mtkhl567 (Henry), as my above post mentions;

i simply did not take proper care to be thorough....and got a bit cocky and distracted

i will expand a bit on this so it is more clear. cut #3 was 'Satin Doll' from the 45rpm version of Johnny Hodges, 'Blues-a-Plenty'. one of my favorite and most played cuts (frequent vistors to my room know it well). in retrospect i was too confident and cocky about my 'feel' for it and only listened for about 1 minute to #A and then only for about 30 seconds to #B.

why would i be so careless with this cut?

it had to do with the previous cut, which was the Mussorsky 45rpm of 'Great Gates'. i had easily chosen #A (correctly, it turned out) but i had played cut #B louder than #A and during the playing of cut #3 (Satin Doll) my brain was doubting my choice for track #2 since i thought maybe that #B might have been more dynamic. during the #A listening of track #3 i said out loud that i wanted to listen to the Mussorsky again.....which i did after choosing #A (wrongly) for track #3.

i listened briefly to the Mussorsky #A again; and choose #A again (correctly again).

a few cuts later i again asked for the Mussorsky to be played. this time i listened longer to both #A and #B and again choose #A. by this time i realized i needed to just relax and spend more time.

in any case; it is conjecture to know how i would have done with track #3 had i not been distracted by track #2......or if i would have practiced more with the methodology. we started the testing at 11 am on Saturday. it wasn't until 10:30 am that i found my safety glasses and put the duct tape over them. i had never listened in this way before......and it is a different environment.

personally; i am confident i could have continued and done 19 out of 20....but that is for another day.

i was unexpectantly nervous......but it was more the excitment of the goings on and being on stage.....not any lack of confidence.

i hope this answers your question.

mikelavigne July 09, 2007 13:39

Henry: You have to understand the situation. There were tons of people there and there were certain distractions (me for one :)).

It really was not close and most people were fooled by pops that they thought were analog when in reality, the recorded digital played those pops back at a much more prominent level. Even though I never peeked, I would always whisper which one was analog in a friend's ear and I was correct each time. If it were done again with very few people, I am sure Mike would get it correct each and every time.

While I had a ball meeting everyone and participating, for my taste, it was really an exercise in futility. Sound was great, food was great, company was great!

jtinn July 09, 2007 05:09