Mike; a good rack is important if you are optimizing your system. there are numerous valid approaches to controling resonance in your gear. then there is the matter of taste and WAF which is not insignificant.

you need to understand what sort of floor you have and the kind of challenges it creates.

i use to use the Zoethecus racks; which were beautiful but not the last word in isolation. i played around for 10 years with various kinds of isolation devices (too numerous to mention--my drawers are full of them). then last year i finally went with the Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack with Formula shelves, SE frame, and Apex footers. the GPA uses a 'de-coupling' approach on various levels to isolate your gear from resonance. it works great.

if you look thru my thread over the last couple of years you will see a good deal of expanded comments on my recent rack experiences. later when i get a chance i will try to identify some of those posts for you.

there are a number of other rack systems that are suppose to be very good; i would recommend doing a search here on AudiogoN for threads about racks.

there is another level beyond racks i have resently discovered. a company called Halcyonic makes an active isolation shelf for electron microscopes that has a profound difference on image focus and levels of resolution. but they are $7500 each.

mikelavigne February 21, 2007 15:48

Audioblazer; sorry if i wasn't more clear. what i meant was that the speaker cables should go from the amp to the tweeter/mid-range terminal; and then the jumper would go from the tweeter/mid-range terminal to the woofer terminal.

in other words; you 'jump' down.

bi-wiring would be taking 2 separate sets of speaker cables and running both from the same amp but then one to the tweeter/mid-range and the other to the woofer.

it's debatable which approach is better; in theory bi-wiring can be.

mikelavigne February 21, 2007 15:01

Gererick; i don't have the technical knowledge to be an authoritative resource for you; but i am happy to give you my opinion anyway.....for what that is worth.

i wonder what sort of ceiling you have. thin-ness/brightness can come from ceiling issues many times in my experience. it is a matter of having strong untreated early reflections.....how about 'slap-echo'? do you get a very reverberant slap echo that decays slowly? that will definitey cause brightness. Rives can fix either issue a number of ways.

assuming that you deal with the thin-ness/brightness issues in some way (these are relatively simple issues to fix) then you get to your question about woofer configuration.

i first used the MM3 as an MM2 (without the top woofer/subwoofer). in most ways the MM2 and MM3 sound the same. where the MM3 has a few advantages are in a bit of additional 'weight' in the bass which allows you to use more tweeter gain and achieve more dynamics at lower SPL's. also; since the impedence of the 2 woofers is different than one it allows the digital amp to be more efficient along with more cone surface area from 2 15" woofers. they are more linear (better detail and texture in the bass) and less stressed (faster with more ease and grip). these differences are small but real.

in speaking to Kevin Malmgren about the benefits of the top woofer/subwoofer he spoke to better balance since the 2 mid-range drivers will have equal support from 2 woofer/subwoofers. i would have to agree with him as the current balance and level of bass coherence i hear is unique in my listening experience.

regarding the benefits to your room of the MM3 i would say the additional cone surface will control the bass better. as far as dealing with nulls and peaks better my feeling is that 4 15" subwoofers will have less distortion than 2. you need all the bass 'horsepower' you can get.

with a relativly small room having just the bottom sub would also have benefits over having two.....just from being able to match the level of presurization to the room properly and still be able to play loud.....particularly with a low ceiling the upper sub could be too close to that boundary.

i have found that in my room sometimes what i percieved as room problems had more to do with speaker frequency problems and speaker bass distortion. when i improved my frequency balance and speaker accuracy (say...with a better amp rack or power cord)......much of my 'peaks and nulls' issues vanished.

with the dramatic length of your room the issues you have are above my level of understanding. hopefully some of my response can be of help.

mikelavigne February 21, 2007 05:45

Mike TQ for clearing some confusion in me. what do u mean by " I will go 1st to the tweeter then to the bass"? Happy listening

audioblazer February 21, 2007 04:51

Mike,
Can you share your experiences with equipment racks that you have had. Do they really make a difference? I am just wondering if it is worth it for my system.

mikeduke February 20, 2007 20:24

Hello Mike: I have had 3 different high-end speakers ($10k to $20k) in my too-large room (18' x 48') which is also not closed off from other rooms. I've had problems with thin-ness/brightness. I have heard my speakers work well in smaller rooms. I am interested in the sound of the MM3 because of the woofer configuration (i.e. both above and below the mid-range and the tweeter). Do you have any particular awareness of the difference between the MM3-style configuration and one where there is no woofer above the mid-tweet? Fuller, rounder, etc. without loss of detail? If yes, is it partly because of the configuration or more because general build quality. Do you have any knowledge of the technical aspects of having a woofer high and low, as it relates peaks and nulls from floor, ceiling, walls? I have had Rives design a basement room for me which is not yet built; they took a large area to work with and made it shorter front-to-back. This is sound from an audio perspective, but I would rather have a larger room than a smaller one (for guests, etc.) The MM3's in a larger space might not have the same brightness and thin-ness, such that I can have my larger room without giving up too much. The MM3's might also over-power the back wall reflection, which is why for technical reasons I cannot have a longer room. My current speakers have two woofers near the floor, then mid, then tweet on top. I can always tell exactly where the tweeters are, with my eyes closed. Sorry to babble.

gererick February 20, 2007 15:47

Audioblazer, i used jumpers with the Kharma Exquisites and the Opus; although they were quite short. my opinion would be that i would go first to the tweeter and then to the bass.....as any degredation would be more audible in the mid-treble region. the best approach would be to do some listening both ways and see how it goes.

it should sound great on the VR4sr....which i really liked when i've listened to. the VR4sr certainly has the resolution to appreciate the Opus.....although it is a bit of overkill from a dollar standpoint.

the Transparent jumpers you have should be fine. you can purchase Opus jumpers (which i did investigate for the upper bass units on the VR11's to avoid 'tri-wiring').....but there is no network on the jumpers so the benefit would be minimal.

mikelavigne February 20, 2007 15:27

U did answered me. just that I seems to have difficulty posting. Wld appreciate if u cld help me on the following. I believe ur quite familiar with Von schweikert speakers. Currently I m using a VR4sr. The midrange/tweeter module is connected to the bass unit with datalink which I thk is the weak link for this speaker. The top midrange unit has 2binding posts &the bass unit 4binding posts. Instead of biwiring ( currently I m using a Transparent reference speaker cable), I thought it wld be more economical to connect Opus to the bass unit, use a Transparent Jumper cable to connect the bass binding posts and buy a 0.75m Transparent Biwire adapter to connect the midrange to the bass unit. How bad is the sound degradation with such cable arrangement? TQ in advance. Yr input is much appreciated. Happy listening

audioblazer February 20, 2007 04:44

Audioblazer; if i have not responded to your previous posts here i apologize.

the Opus is very very special. there are aspects of the Opus performance that are unique in my listening experience. the Opus controls resonance and impedence issues in the bass thru it's network boxes that results in superior bass detail and coherence. i have not heard any other cable do that. the high frequencies are life-like and without etch; yet are not restricted or closed in.

in total; the Opus just sounds more like music to me and is more listenable. other cables which have some of these attributes all seem to add color or somehow have a noticable sonic signature which to my ears is ultimately distracting if also beautiful. with Opus things sound more unique and the magic of every cut seems to shine thru. any cable which adds a sameness to music (even if that sameness is a wonderfull golden glow) is not for me.

regarding bi-wireing with Opus.....if you can afford it then it is the ultimate. using the Transparent Ref MM would also work bi-wiring.

mikelavigne February 19, 2007 15:11

Hi Mike. This is my 4th attempt to get into the thread. Reason for asking abt the Transparent Opus is I have the opportunity to buy it a a very good price and I want to make sure its the right decision. However I wonder whether it make sense cos I will be pairing it with VR4sr which is design for biwire. Some audiogoners will think I m crazy to use a speaker cable which is much more expensive than the speaker itself. What do you think? You certainly have a fabulous room, something I hope to be able duplicate sometime in the future. Great to have passionate pple like you who share unselfishly for the love of the music/gears. Wish we have dealer for MM3 in Malaysia. Just by looking at it give me a feeling that I have a long way to go in reaching music nirvana. Happy listening

audioblazer February 19, 2007 11:53

hi Paul, there is no adjustment for the mid-range driver; just tweeter gain and 5 bass woofer/subwoofer adjustments.

during early development (when crossover bits were sitting spread out all over the floor) i'm sure they played around with voicing the mid drivers....but i never heard that varible.

in any case; whatever choice they made sounds 'just right' to me. i would guess they went for 'most transparent' as well as 'perfectly natural', and even 'f#&*ing amazing'.

as previously discussed; there is a crossover adjustment for the woofer/subwoofer that certainly affects the mid bass and lower mid range; but it does not affect the mid-range driver per se (it is not connected to the middle section of the speaker where that driver is).

if there is some sort of 'changable resistor' for mid-range voicing i'm not aware of it.

mikelavigne February 18, 2007 14:23

Hey Mike - another question on the MM3's.....back when I looked at the protos, there was a switch-selectable cap in the crossover that changed the midrange sound a little bit, I think it was "most transparent", or a little more "lush". This was going to be a back-panel switch.

Did that adjustment make it into the final product?

Just curious, and if it did, wondering what you hear in the choices.....

thanks,

paul

paul99 February 18, 2007 05:35

Mike; my recollection is that the dart is Class A for the first 10 or 11 watts; then A/B.....but i could not find the confirmation in a quick look at the darTZeel website.

it runs quite 'luke-warm'....not hot.....even with an air-tight case. those heat fins must really work.

my opinion is that your JM Labs speakers would love the dart.....particulary the Be tweeters will love the extention and smoothness in the treble.

mikelavigne February 17, 2007 04:10

Does the Dart operate in Class A at all? Or does it operate in something completely different.
Thanks

[email protected] February 16, 2007 12:52

Thanks for the reply Frank. I will take all the feedback I can get :). Your system of course looks fantastic as well. This would by first really really high end purchase. I have never even considered a piece of equipment at this price level. But I think that it would be worth it. Herve has been great. I only came around recently to the thought of getting this amp. But through my emails with him, I decided that this is what I want, no matter how long it takes to get it. I have a feeling that it will be simply fantastic with my JM Labs 1027Be's. Not MM3's but pretty good none the less.
Thanks again.
Mike

[email protected] February 15, 2007 20:06

mdoukas- FWIW, I've had my Dart amp for close to two years now and have never blown a fuse. It has been the most "set it and forget it" piece in my system. I leave it powered on all the time and I only know it's there once the "eyes" come alive and I start hearing all that great music. It is dead quiet with no clicks, pops, or other noises. The versatile ground pin configurations allow you to eliminate any hum issues very easily. So long as you adhere to the very simple instructions Mike mentioned above, I can't think of more satisfying and bullet-proof component. I cannot say enough good things about Herve either- a true gem.

Frank

fsarc February 15, 2007 18:34

Thanks Mike. I have yet to hear the Dart. But there is PA dealer that I am in contact with. He sells Dart, Evolution Acoustics, and emm labs. So it is possible that I could hear a "similar" system like yours. I read the user manual and the audiophile manual. Both were very good in conveying information. Plus I in contact with Herve. He has been fantastic in answering all of my questions. I was just interested in some real end user thoughts on it. That is what I want. For me, once everything is connected, it will stay connected so that is an easy rule to follow. Once I turn it off, it will most likely stay off. And I can get into the habit of turning on the pre and then the amp. So I guess it doesn't seem that bad.

I don't need to "warm" any thing up. I just want to hear the music. My speakers are good enough to be put to that test. Not to mention that I saw a system with JM Labs 927Be's with this amp. I had those speakers before my 1027's. That gives me hope that it would be a very good match.
Thanks again for your feedback. It has been very helpful.
Mike

[email protected] February 15, 2007 12:45

Glenn; thanks for the kind words.....you have captured the essence of my intent.

mikelavigne February 15, 2007 06:38

Paul, i'm with you....i enjoy having speakers out into the room. they need to breathe. and while the visual has its effect....the reality of the setup is much more the issue.

when i was at RMAF where you are listening to 25 to 30 systems in a day in relatively small rooms....you quickly hear the differences in setup partiularly speakers that are away from room boundaries. the sound is waay different....whatever the visual.

mikelavigne February 15, 2007 06:04

Imdoc; i'm sorry if my response gave you the impression that i was in any way offended by your points.....they were reasonable and i appreciate the feedback. thanks for the kind words.
listening culture is sooo personal and the mind and our senses are sooo interesting.

i would have liked to hear your Quad experiment. last summer when i recieved the loaner VR7's i set them up at 14' 6" apart.....the VR9's had been at 10' 6" apart. i moved my listening position back 4 feet at the same time. the visual of this setup was dramatically different as was the presentation.

so wide, so deep, and so big.

it was 'off-putting' for awhile until i got use to it. i had to listen with the lights dim all the time until my 'culture' adapted. this setup was with 9' 6" from the front of the speakers to the wall behind. not 25' like the Quads....but out in the room none-the-less.

thanks for your thoughts.

mikelavigne February 15, 2007 05:57

Mike, if you have not read the "Audiophile's technical manual' on the darTZeel website.....it will do a much better job than i could regarding some logistical issues with the amp. to answer your question; while in no way is the darTZeel 'delicate'.....it does require following a few rules to use. you should only turn it on with speakers connected.....preamps should be powered up first, then the dart amp.....difficult speaker loads may require DC offset to be used......when turned off, you need to wait 5 minutes for the amp to fully discharge prior to restart. all these rules are the result of the extremely pure circut design; and result in 'never before heard' (NHB) performance.

OTOH failure to observe these rules will likely cause the 'crowbar' protection circut to engage....in other words....a fuse will blow. nothing too dramatic.....but you will need to remove the glass top and put a new fuse in. really not a big deal. if that is delicate then i guess it is delicate. i have owned 5 different dart amps and the only issue has been blowing fuses when i violated a rule.

specifically; you can change a fuse with the speakers connected.....but the power must be off for at least 5 minutes.....actually.....you should not actually touch anything until you unplug the amp and maybe 10 minutes is safer for the power supply to completely drain.

BTW; that would be the proper method for changing fuses in any amp. touching a fuse to a live power grid is a big no-no.

i assume you have heard the dart....if not; i then assume you are looking for a very neutral, natural sounding amp without a ss or tube character. it will not warm up anything.....but it is sweet and very detailed.....it sounds to me like music.

mikelavigne February 15, 2007 05:46

I think you have the rare room that is optiized acoustically and pyschoacoustically. Immersion in the music is what this hobby is all about and it looks like your system is about as immersive as it gets. Your thread has been a source of education and inspiration for many of us just starting out in the hobby.

Regards,

-Glenn

sdatch February 14, 2007 14:08

Just a thought on your Opus speaker cables, unless you have pulled the plug on your VR11's wouldn't you want both sets to connect to them for your setup?

kss22558 February 14, 2007 07:16

Mike,

Why sell the Opus?? You have VR11s coming and those are probably going to be biamped, no?

Joey

joey_v February 14, 2007 04:42

Imdoc -I think you may be partly right that our brains have a hard time visualizing depth when we "see" a solid wall right behind the speakers.

But there is also a very real acoustic effect, caused by reflections from a close wall. In my old house I had a hard brick wall behind the speakers. I hung an oriental rug from that wall (between the speakers) as a kind of tapestry, to provide a soft, absorbent surface. That allowed my soundstage depth to increase. Nevertheless, moving the speakers out further from the wall (from about 3 ft to about 5 ft, gave more depth.

I think those changes were real, and were just based on acoustics. I believe your Quads in the doorway was the same thing (maybe even more so since the Quads are dipoles, and radiate from the rear).

While I agree that "eyes closed" removes a layer of distraction, and let's you listen better, it sure didn't have the same improvement as moving the speakers.

paul

paul99 February 14, 2007 04:22