Audiofool; thanks for the kind words. i remember vaguely the conversation and your moniker.....but can't connect the name.....it sounds like you are having fun.....congrats on the room.....i'm sure it is very satisfying.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 03:19

Dev, thanks.

a few weeks back i had disconnected my speaker cables for some reason and then reconnected them.....innocent enough. but after i went back to listening i noticed that my image had shifted to the right about 15 degrees. as i normally have a spot on center image this definetly got my attention.

i went around checking all the possible causes;

--tried a few different discs including mono...still there.

--checked speaker terminals--ok

--checked balance on preamp--ok

--checked that the power switches were both on for the speaker subwoofer amps--ok

--my amp is stereo so no issues there.....but wait....each channel has a toggle for impedence adjustment depending on input configuration....BINGO!

i checked this and what do you know.....it was suppose to be set on 50 ohms for my BNC 'zeel' connection but when i messed with the speaker cables i had bumped one channel to 75 ohms....which changed the gain enough to offset the image to the right.

my guess is that there is an impedence issue with one of your cables.....i'm no techie so i can't say what the cause would be....but it sounds like the same deal....maybe something loose or a marginal connection....my guess is that your problem will come and go and have nothing to do with breakin. ask for another set of cables.

btw; i listened to a bit of Enya today too (a guilty pleasure for sure) and it sounded damn good.....but don't tell anybody.....i don't want it to get around.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 03:09

Hi Mike - This is the first time I have posted on an Audiogon thread, but after reading the recent unprovoked attack from loxodrome, I just had to write. I'm sure you don't remember me, but I called you on the phone several years ago to ask about Kharma Exqisites (I had heard an excellent demo at GTT). Even though you didn't know me from Adam you couldn't have been more gracious and open in sharing your time and experience (experience, not judgement). Since then I have followed your system not only with an interest in your equipment choices but with the knowledge that you were a generous guy who shares my passion for the hobby of music and music reproduction. I have followed in a similar path and now am fortunate enough to have a dedicated room and some unusual equipment. I had even thought of opening up a "Virtual System" so that others who shared my interest and curiosity in seeing how far one could push the envelope could comment. I think your listing has been a model for that type of interaction. But after your recent experience, I'm not so sure if I want to expose myself to the loxodromes of the world. It seems to me how one spends his hard-earned money and does in the privacy of his own home is really what personal freedom is all about. Those whose only focus is on how much things cost appear to be motivated either by envy (they don't call it a deadly sin for nothing) or perhaps the notion that spending money on audio equipment is either immoral or some kind of zero sum game where what you spend somehow impacts what they spend. I personally would rather they use their time writing to the government if they are that concerned with financial frugality. At any rate, please accept my expression of admiration and support and please keep writing as long as you feel like it.

audiofool February 11, 2007 02:19

Mike regarding Jennifer Warns ("Way Down Deep") I also use this as a system tester, great piece along with many others.

Okay these MM3 speakers are really sounding good, if they are that good don't go to crazy informing everyone because the prices will go up quickly. Just joking!

Appears like that you listen to some great music which I also enjoy, I am listening to Enya right now which also has some great pieces after a stressful couple of days, more about that.

I installed some Virtual Dynamic Revelation 2.0 balanced cables in my system Thursday nite, when I turned the system back on to give a listen wow! I don't me wow! in a good way but what the heck is going on here, the centre image was not centred. It was coming out of the right speaker, I turned everything off to check my connections. I scratched my head saying it's only one length of balanced cables so it's got to be connected properly. I checked anyways making sure the connections were good. (have you ever used VD product? boy is it ridged, you get a work out just pre-bending so you can install it)

Well I'll skip a few days only played back ground music so the cables could settle in. Today being SATURDAY I put on some music around 8am. but no change. I pull out the VD cable and put in one of my other cables, yes back to the norm. I listen for an hour contemplating what to do, I decided to reinstall the VD, same problem but now just in from the right speaker a little. I posted some items on Audiogon so I needed to check my email and reply back to others.

It is now about 4:30pm and decided to sit down and see whats going on. I put on female voice that is suppose be centered, the voice is still off to the right speaker but all the sudden it starts to shift and wala it is in the centre. If I had not heard this myself happen I would not of ever believed it, now the voices are bright, sound is not pleasing.

It's now 7pm and I decided to sit down again to see if there are any changes, the brightness is gone. I have never experienced this before with any cable, tube equipment yes when there is a tub problem.

Have you ever experienced anything like this before?

I can't comment as of yet on the cable but I am being able to listen to Enya and she is just taking me away.

Remember my previous thread to you about stress? well you and I are both right now getting some stress relief.

Enjoy, I look forward to more.

dev February 11, 2007 00:18

further MM3 thoughts;

Deep Bass--there is a track which has a killer bass whack....."Way Down Deep", Jennifer Warnes, the Hunter. i have heard it on many systems before; but it turns out i have never HEARD it really....until now on the MM3's. every prior listening was distorted. i thought is really did make a kind of 'buzz' at the strongest point. but no; it has tone and articulation....it's music...not just a sound.....it has texture, it has a spot in the soundstage, and is musically involving. i'll try to get over my habit of cringing in anticipation.

yes; Jennifer Warnes is a bit 'audiophiley' but i love her voice.

Voices--where do i start? they are simply on another level thru the MM3's. Voices are really full range intruments. by that i mean that any system that is not coherently full range misses part of the magic of vocals. not to say getting part of it correct is not better than screwing part of it up. the MM3 has a crystaline clarity; and yet at the same time this bed of ambient energy that is like real life. the MM3 also is extremely delicate and tonally subtle.....while microdynamically alive. combine all those and you have real life vocals. they are just more 'there' than i have ever heard them.

i pulled out a few of my Lps with vocals to get a feel for it. to be honest; i am not blessed with a vocabulary or ability to do justice to my perceptions regarding my impressions. i will only say that Ella, Louis, and Linda Rondstadt were here last night.

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 17:14

Paul99, thanks.

congrats on the MM2's.....prepare to be amazed.

in the last couple of days the MM3's have truely found their voice. i have found the 'magic' point regarding the crossover. i had it set too low and i had a hole in my mid-bass. this was causing me to keep turning up the gain on the bass trying to find the correct balance. bass impact was lacking and ultimate coherence was missing.

then i moved the crossover from 80hz to 120hz, backed off the bass gain from +3db to 'flat'.....and easy as pie.....sonic bliss!

since Thursday night i have pulled out disc after disc (and Lp after LP)......what first strikes me is the perfect balance. there is a top to bottom coherence unique in my musical listening. there is a seemingly perfect sense of presence; which is what i call having an ease and extention in the mid and deep bass. at the beginning of each cut it's as if the recording venue suddenly appears before me.....i am in that room...now. intstruments happen in that space. whatever the recording can reveal seems to be all there.

i have a few familiar cuts i play to see how smooth the bass is from top to bottom. does it get muddy? is detail obscured? is the fullness and naturalness there and yet are things in balance? how is the pace and pulse of the music?

the MM3's now simply take my expectations on these cuts to a new level.

'Only the Lonely' from Chris Issak on 'Baja Sessions' is a favorite to test mid-bass/lower midrange transition. Chris's voice will overwhelm many full range systems as it easily excites room nodes or any non-linearities.

i have played this cut literally 1000 times on my and many different systems. this cut is quite SPL sensitive as it can easily get all muddy and thick.

the MM3's took this cut to a new level for me. the lack of distortion while pushing the SPL's a bit was mesmorizing. i was pulled into the music and had a hard time listening critically. no bloat.....no thickness...just the music...with more substance and visceral involvement than ever before.

i could list 50 such experiences from my most played cuts these last couple of days. this morning i listened to organ music for a couple of hours.....trying to listen for deep bass but losing my way with the music just pullin me in. i started 2 or three cuts a couple of times as i forgot what i was listening for. i was just enjoying where the music was taking me.

the MM3's just deliver whatever the recording provides without stress. they sound real....they sound alive.....they sound powerfull and delicate.

this weekend i need to pull the RTA out and check things out. but to be honest.....i just want to listen. who cares about numbers if it sounds wonderful?

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 16:20

Mike; anything Herve does will be first-class. if he gives the integrated the same volume control of his preamp it will be killer. you won't likely have the battery power but it will still be a great sounding integrated amp. when i was listening to the pre-production version of the preamp there were times it was not in battery mode.....it still made an awesome combination with the dart amp.

i can't see how you could go wrong.

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 15:34

Ardri; yes, i still use my 'Relax-the-Back' Zero Gravity chair. i have now used it for 6 years and have yet to find anything approaching it's comfort. i keep the chair at a fairly upright position; i am sometimes tempted to recline it to parallel for maximum effect but i'm afraid i'll lose my perfect position for ideal listening. it is just so comfortable for listening.

in general i agree that headrests and high backs are not ideal for optimal sonic performance. but it's not that simple. not all back rests and head rests are created equal. i use to use the Ekones Stressless chair for listening; but it has a broad backrest that is concave and 'cups' the sound. i moved it to my Home Theater to join 2 other Ekones Stressless chairs where the high back issues are less a concern.

any backrest that is wide and tall; particularly with any sort of a concave shape.....is a problem.

my Zero Gravity chair is high backed; but the backrest is quite narrow.....the width of my shoulders....it does rise above my shoulders; but the chair uses a pillow that extends my head a good distance from the backrest.....and the surfaces curve away from my head. comparing it's listening effect to other low back chairs in my room; there is a very tiny difference.....but certainly not better or worse.

mikelavigne February 10, 2007 15:28

Hi Mike -

Glad to hear that you'll continue to post as you explore your system & room.

Someone once told me that "you cannot control anyone's actions, you can only hope to control your own reactions". Easy to say, and hard to do.

That is what I hear in your "much consideration" post. We all see that Lox was out of line, but you're looking past that to what you could have done differently. Very impressive.

And I really love Stereotaipei's "square inside, round outside". Fantasic. Who'd have thought: personal growth on Audiogon :-).

Take care, and please continue to share your insights on the MM3's. I can't wait for mine (the Two's) to arrive.....

paul

paul99 February 09, 2007 20:41

Mike, glad to see you back. Herve is planing on an intigrated amp. I know it is only in pre-pre planning stages but how do you it will perform. What does your gut tell you. Do you feel that it would be a too much of a compromise, or would it be a fine piece of gear for someone looking to get into some Dart sound.
Thanks

[email protected] February 08, 2007 13:28

Mike.Do you still have the Backsaver Zero Gravity recliner as your primary listening chair? I was considering buying one but some have suggested a chair with a back that rises above your ears will interfere with your hearing the signal as it will refract at that point.I had thought in the fully reclined position the back is parallel with the floor so its not an issue. Any thoughts?

ardri February 08, 2007 05:55

SC53, Sarah.....yes, i recall the SA-1 fondly; and i also had the CD-12 at the same time for redbook. both great pieces.....the Unidisc is very nice as a Universal player....i don't think i've heard a better one.

the MM3 does use a ribbon tweeter.....which surprisingly integrates perfectly with the ceramic mid-range for completely seamless upper registers.

no; the Rockport does not have swapable headshells. the carbon fibre arm design makes it very easy to switch cartridges. i can change cartridges in about 15 minutes with a medium level set-up. i then adjust VTA dynamically. since the vaccuum hold down is so easy on the cartridge and everything is so perfectly made; the set-up holds indefinitely. i get the exact same VTF to the 'hundreth' of a gram today as i set it at a year ago.

the Rockport comes with 4 different screw in weighs that allow you to use it with any compliance or weight cartridge.

enjoy!

mikelavigne February 08, 2007 05:29

Stereotaipei; to answer your detailed post.

if you are in SF at the end of March you are welcome to fly to Seattle to visit my room to hear darTZeel, EMM and MM3; it's less than a 2 hour direct flight with flights about every hour.

regarding Valin's comments from RMAF. while repecting anyone's comments particularly Valin's......i did not share that feeling listening to the MM3 that they were 'sorely stressed by plucked strings' or that they were 'underdriven' by the dart amp. OTOH the room was 23' x 36' x 11'......and what i heard there was all over the board due to the room being so crappy. the previous year the VR9's in the same room were similarly inconsistent. i can tell you that plucked strings are 'on fire' when appropriate on the MM3 in my room. i played Copland's 'Fanfare' last weekend for a few guests in my room which is also large but considerably more balanced and have not heard it done better.

i am not yet prepared to compare the MM3 to the VR9 as i am still in discovery mode on the MM3. they are both magnificent speakers with slightly different design approaches and characters.

let me know if you want to work out a visit.

mikelavigne February 08, 2007 05:12

after 'much' consideration...

i feel i made a few mistakes;

1. i should not have responded to Lox initially.

2. i should have kept my considerations to myself since the way this has played out will simply polarize things further. those that quietly or openly don't care for my approach will be antagonized further.

OTOH who cares? right? i sure shouldn't.

3. i guess in my job i am always fixing things or making them 'all better'. it's a mistake to think that way here. that attitude assumes some common values.....and this is, after all, the web.

in any case; i want to go on; please let's forget this direction.

obviously; there is much positive from the interaction here that has some value to many....and thanks.....you are correct....i just need to ignore those things that deserve to be ignored.

"Square inside....round outside" ;^)

i'll try to be worthy of that.

mikelavigne February 08, 2007 04:14

Mike,

Dont stop posting. Just know that you cant please everyone and keeping away from things isnt going to solve anything.

Your system is great man.... and it's one of the constants I go through when I visit audiogon. I always visit your page.

I'm 24 and I first saw your system page when I was 22. 2 years later, I have amassed a system almost worthy of putting up on one of these pages... mostly because of you and your page.

So dont stop posting.

Joey

joey_v February 08, 2007 00:44

Lox upon reading your post on your system,It sounds like
you are very educated and you really know what you want.
And thats amazing,but why are you trying to impose your
idea on Mike,I can tell by reading Mike post,He is happy with His choices.And the good thing about it,He has the
money to support it,I will do the same if I am in his position.Mike please continue buying equipment you want,
and let us know how they sound,who knows I will win the
lottery next year.

jayctoy February 07, 2007 17:11

Let's see, Lox uses a single seat bike (and even he can't help mentioning the brand) as an attack on Mike's single seat, brand name ride. Am I missing something? :)

skull February 06, 2007 23:42

Actually, Loxodrome's comments are designed to be taken with a large grain of salt as is demonstrated on his System page, under 'Reading'.

imdoc February 06, 2007 19:29

Mike, I have to say that I have really enjoyed reading your threads, I have been reading them over the past month. I have gained allot of information which is a really helpful. I am looking at new main speakers right now and the MM3's speakers really have me intrigued. I love the hobby in a whole because after working hard and dealing with all the stress of life I get to listen to my system an it all melts away.

You can't worry about negative thoughts from specific individuals, that's live.

It is obvious by reading these threads that you have gained allot of respect by others and they look forward to your on going changes and thoughts and would be a great lost.

So forget about the negatives and remember all of the positives and people who you have influenced, hey if I would not have read your threads I would not have gained what I have.

I look forward to reading more of your thoughts, enjoy!

dev February 06, 2007 15:06

Hello Mike,

I have never posted on your site before, but have really enjoyed following you through your experiences with your system and the changes you have made over the years. I hope you don't "pull the plug" on your postings. Some of us who enjoy reading your experiences with your system don't live in big markets to where we can hear or even see the type of equipment that you and other high end audiophiles use. Personally, I don't have the funds that allow me to purchase this type of equipment at this time, but I do dream to have a system like this someday and what I can read and get from people like you is a very valuable resource for those of us who aspire to reach where you have gotten and we can only thank you for sharing with us your experiences and insights into different pieces of equipment that you use.

I was lucky to be invited into a gentlemns home to hear the VR-7's with the DartZeel amp and meitner source equipment and was truly amazed. It just made me realize what can be truly attained with first class equipment. I would really appreciate if you would compare your new MM3's to your VR-9's when you feel you are ready.

Sincerely,
Kelly

kss22558 February 06, 2007 08:55

Lox I think you are totally wrong.I dont know,why you even
bother to attacked Mike,You are out of line.You think Mike
will spend that kind of money if He does not love and
enjoying the music?Common bro wake up.Enjoy your bicycle
and I will be happy for you...Just relax...and be happy
for others....you will stay younger...

jayctoy February 05, 2007 17:49

Henrykh,
Personally I listened to the Dart only a few years ago, not on the Mini. Was great!
Wslam just bought last week one Dart for his mini (you can contact him on TAS forum, or on his personal site: http://photos.lam.ws/gallery/2424286). He listened to a lot of amp before falling in love with the Dart: ARC ref210, Spectral 250, Krell evolution, Ayre MXR... so the match seems quite nice

If I remember well, his room is something like 13'x30'and he says that the Dart has enough power to drive the mini (he is mainly listening to orchestral classical music).
I have to say I am surprised, given the fact that the real sensitivity of the mini is 84dB.
Personally I would rather consider to buy a Karan 450 (haven't listened to it yet...let's see) to replace my Gryphon Antileon: unfortunately it is in 220V and I am now moving to Japan where they use 100V power supply so cannot use the Antileon w/o redoing the power supply...

stereotaipei February 05, 2007 17:46

StereoTaipei.....do u use the Darts?: I was interested in the Magico Minis for awhile but noticed they may be a bit inefficient with a sensistivy of 87 into 8 ohms was not sure if the Darts could drive them well....have u tried them together?

henryhk February 05, 2007 13:03

Mike,
I fully understand your reaction.
It is unfortunately too bad that personal attacks from a few idiots can have more weight than 99% of people who respect you and read with pleasure your system evolution.

Can only tell you that I am one of the immense majority of Audiogon readers who respect you for your quest of perfection, the quality of your judgment and everything we learnt reading your posts.
However, what makes you really different in my eyes is the humility and humanity of your posts, not your room or your system. You are not the type of guy who needs to brag on his latest Ferrari or custom bike. You just want to share your passion and you treat the same way the guy with a $2000 or $200 000 system. Even under attack, you remain impressively polite and respectful. Respect!

As one Chinese proverb says, men should be "square inside, round outside", i.e. firm on what one stands for, one's belief and value, but respectful/flexible/avoiding attacks on one's interaction with others...

I don't know you in person, but hope to have one day the honor to meet you on one of the hifi shows.

stereotaipei February 05, 2007 00:06

Lol, people think I'm crazy as well cause of my hobby. But should I quit whit it because of the few ones who actually start flaming?? There are lots of people wo do apreciate it, like myself.

bart_nl February 04, 2007 20:49