Audioblazer; my reason for selling was that i had 2 sets of Opus (i bi-amped the VR9's) and only need one set for the MM3's. having one set of $33k Opus just 'sit around' isn't too smart.

2 weeks ago i pulled the ad.....and am thinking about whether i want to sell or not.

whatever i do i will keep one set.....it's my (so far unapproached) reference.

mikelavigne February 14, 2007 03:57

Hi Mike I noticed from audiogon listing that you are putting up Transparent Opus speaker cable for sales . Cant remember what was the reason for the sales which you have stated in the advertisemt. I wonder what you are replacing it. After all Transparent Opus cable is a great cable. You have a great system. Happy listening

audioblazer February 14, 2007 02:51

Imdoc: I listen with my eyes closed when I am doing serious listening. My feeling is that light and visual distractions causes the brain to work on other things while you are listening. With my eyes closed, I am only focused on the music and it generally sounds better.

jtinn February 14, 2007 02:30

No, no. No critiquing here as I think you have a world class set up with regard to room, eqpt and attention to detail. I was looking for your thoughts, experience and opinions.

I am of the belief that our brains have difficulty with "seeing" performers with the wall close to the speaker - that our eye- brain has difficulty "suspending the disbelief" that palpable full sized figures are "there in the room". I have found that the more space behind my speakers gives me more stereo ("solidness"). As an experiment, I once placed a set of stacked Quads in a hallway between 2 open rooms with a total front wall to back wall of about 50 feet. The speakers were about mid point and the image seemed to go on for ever from the speakers to the back wall, about 25 feet. It was spooky. Others could "hear it" also.

When folks dim the lights or close their eyes, the speaker-wall distance may become a non issue ("out of sight out of mind"?). At least that's what I think.

Just looking for other's opinions.

imdoc February 13, 2007 18:22

Imdoc; how one's hearing perceptions are affected by the view may vary from person to person. as i read your post you seem to think that since there is a wall there that somehow that keeps me from hearing depth...as opposed to having some other visual picture might allow me to percieve the stage better.

personally; i have windows in my room with trees and mountains to see. in my previous room i had larger windows with a garden to look out to. the current room has the large diffuser between the windows and in my previous room i had a window shade that i had down much of the time in the middle window.

no matter which scene i saw with my eyes open and the lights fully on.....diming the lights and closing my eyes allowed me to percieve the soundstage and the music more vividly.

whether a wall or an ocean is not the issue. it's the minds ability to percieve.....based on my personal observations it's better with low light and eyes closed.

i percieve the soundstage and depth with my eyes open....but it's better with them closed.

if i mis-interpreted your post please forgive me.

mikelavigne February 13, 2007 16:21

Thanks Mike. It has been a long time since I played any records. I am %100 digital. But that is due to space constraints. Like I said, eventually I would love to get a nice TT for my system. But now I am going to work on upgrading my 2ch amp.

I am seriously thinking about throwing caution to the wind and getting the dart amp. I have a question though. Is it a sensitive amp? What I mean is, is it delicate. I have read the manual and it can be scary. All those items it says you can't do. For example, can you change a fuse with the speakers still connected? Basically I would like to know if it is hard to live with. If I get this, I am going to have blame you :). Thanks for the reply

[email protected] February 13, 2007 15:50

Mike; in my experience none of my records have shown any 'wear' per se. some i have played 500 times or more. i'm sure on a molecular level there is wear happening to some degree. a few have shown just a bit of additional surface noise over time.....but no diminishment of musical energy.

i am careful and keep things clean.....but i shy away from cleaners and such. "first, do no wrong".

i have backups (maybe more than one.....many still sealed) for most of my favorite Lps (lifetime supply i call it) but as of yet i've not needed to use one.

a good tt system can be very satisfying if the culture of it appeals to you. i would also say that digital is also satisfying.....it's all good.

mikelavigne February 13, 2007 15:01

Carl, thanks. i will also look forward to your impressions when your MM3's arrive.

i'm simply enjoying non-critical listening.....maybe the drivers have finally broken in fully.....i don't know.....there is just a sense of harmony in what i am hearing. no strain, unflappable.......tasty.

mikelavigne February 13, 2007 14:51

"personally; i find it to be obvious that my concentration on the music is best when the room is dim my eyes are nearly shut. i'm no neurologist; but i assume that when your eyes are shut or when it's dark more of your brain's computing power goes to your ears"

Does anyone think the wall at the speaker end of a listening room (particularly when loudspeakers are near the wall) "closes" in the sound from a _visual/psychological_ perspective. Perhaps your mind prevents you from "seeing" beyond the wall and, accordingly, one of the reasons speakers often/usually "sound better" out in the room is a psychoacoustic response of your eye/brain that is now allowing instruments/musicians to "exist" behind the speakers. One therefore "hears" more depth/spaciousness, etc.

Closing your eyes takes the wall out of the equation in a similar fashion.

imdoc February 13, 2007 13:57

Hi Mike
I'm so glad to see that you have decided to continue posting. I am enthralled with your MM3 descriptions, as I am eagerly awaiting delivery of my pair. Last I heard they are currently at the finishers, and should be delivered in about 3 weeks. Thanks again for sharing your experiences
Carl

czapp February 12, 2007 22:25

Still the mosy amazing system/room on the planet!!!

DV

dewald_visser February 12, 2007 17:00

Thanks again mike. I am a total vinyl noob. I don't have the space now, but in the future I would love to get one. Fours years seems pretty good. I imagine you have played many records in that time. Do the records wear out? Do you find you need to replace certain one because of use? You might as well load up on your favorite if you can. I think it will be fun once I have space to put something together.

[email protected] February 12, 2007 14:45

Mike; i have 4 cartridges for the Rockport; the Koetsu RSP, the Dynavector XV-1s, the Colibri XGW 6.5 and my fav....the Colibri XCP 8.5.

the Rockport is very easy on cartridges; as it uses vaccuum holddown so the record is always perfectly flat.....and thus the stress is minimized. my Colibri is a very light cartridge and i track it at 1.42 grams.....so the forces on it are minimal while playing. the one issue is the lateral force put on the stylus when initially dropped into the groove; as the attachment point of the stylus to the cartridge is carrying the whole weight of the arm assembly. it is important to have the platter perfectly flat to insure there is minimal side force at the moment of stylus drop. fortunately, once level the Rockport stays level indefinitly.

it is hard to say how long a cartridge will last; my precious Colibri XCP is not yet sounding less wonderful after 4 years of primary duty. it likely has an ideal enviironment. OTOH i may soon buy another so i have a spare. on nice thing about vdH cartridges is that they can be cheaply re-furbished.

my one concern is that Arnie is not getting any younger.

mikelavigne February 12, 2007 14:29

Dev,

your outdoor space sounds very nice; the 'walls' might give you a bit of sound definition.

the MM3's are made of hundreds of layers of Baltic Birch plywood milled and stacked horizontally and glued together. there are integral internal braces.....the final piece is incredibly strong and non-resonate.

there is a clear laquer over the end grains which makes for a beautiful looking cabinet with a very deep lustre. the transition pieces i think are HDF. there is no venier anywhere.....what you see are all end grains.

i saw the unfinished raw cabinet when i was down in San Diego in August. when i visited Kevin i noticed some of his art on the walls of his home. it is no accident that the MM3 has a beautiful orgainic shape; in addition to Kevin's other talents he is an accomplished artist.

there are other speakers with high levels of construction.....but none better than the MM3 i am aware of.

the MM3's come with spikes. listening to the benefits of spiking the MM3; i likely prefer it.....although the VR9's used castors and they also sound great.

do the spikes help the MM3's attain 'never heard before' bass definition? i don't know.

my 'dream' floor interface for a speaker would be this;

Halcyonics Sandwich Platform

enjoy.

mikelavigne February 12, 2007 14:07

Thanks for the reply Mike. In talking with him I am convinced that it will be a solid piece. I probably at the least will get that. But I may try and go all out and get the amp. It will take longer for me to get that but I am wondering if it would be better. I just need to find time to go and check out the gear. Thanks again.

Also it is good to hear that you feel you are now getting the best out of your speakers. Interesting how the crossover made such a dramatic improvement. I guess you will need to stock up on cartridges for the Rockport. How long do they normally last. I know you have 3 different ones. Do they all wear the same or do some last longer then others.

[email protected] February 12, 2007 12:35

Mike regarding the DarTZeel my friend took the top of and did the changes, it was a current issue.

Regarding putting my speakers out side, I tried to dig up some pictures to show you what it really looked like but could not find them. I should have been a little clearer, the space is about 50 feet by 80 ft. sunken in back yard surrounded by landscaping, the landscaping walls are about 15 to 20ft depending on the areas. (boulders etc. it feels like you are in a room) Where the speakers were set-up was in a covered area, the speakers were placed approx. 5 ft off the back wall. It was far from being perfect but it was very interesting.

Regarding your old to you new room wow! that's a difference.

You are correct about the Andra's sound similar to the Von Schweikert. I am looking for speakers for my main room so that is why your thread has caught my attention with what you have put in it and the sounds that you are experiencing.

These MM3's really have me intrigued.

In the pictures they look really nice, is that real wood veneer and if so what type? How is the finish, can't really tell looking at the pics.

Do the speakers come with casters (wheels) so you can move them around?

dev February 12, 2007 00:55

Joey; listening culture is a sensitive subject. i guess eyes open or shut may be a less controversial aspect of it.

personally; i find it to be obvious that my concentration on the music is best when the room is dim my eyes are nearly shut. i'm no neurologist; but i assume that when your eyes are shut or when it's dark more of your brain's computing power goes to your ears.

natural selection has allowed those animals that survive the nights to pass on their genes.....which logically tells us that in darkness you need to pay more attention to sounds.....which could kill you.

even when i go listen to live music i sometimes close my eyes to really get into the music. it allows me to compare my perceptions of live music to reproduced music in my room.

i use the Lutron GRAFIC EYE 2404 controller to set up different lighting 'scenes'. my Pronto remote has 4 discrete buttons that i use to quickly and silently change scenes based on the moment.

the majority of my listening time is spent multi-tasking to some degree. my laptop is open (like right now) and i'm surfing, answering, reading, etc. i have books, magazines, etc. the lights are on behind and above me......and there are 2 floor sitting cans pointing up behind the speakers for 'fill'.

when the mood or music strikes me i may just lay back and close my eyes; or.....close the laptop, hit the off button, and then just float in the soft glow of the (15 watt) lights behind the speakers.....with my eyes nearly but not fully shut. i find that keeping my eyes closed actually takes away from my concentration on the music. dim lights and my eyes a bit closed is least distracting. a completely dark room is distracting to me.

last night i did the whole Beethoven's 9th with the lights fully dim, my eyes mostly semi-shut. it was sublime and invigorating....i can still 'feel' it.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 20:27

Dev, good luck with your cable issue.

my prevoius room was 12' x 18'.....which was a limitation regarding large scale music. however it was an asset with more intimate music and since i listened at a closer distance immediacy was not challenging. my large room is perfect for large scale music; but i have needed to do quite a bit of gear changing and adjustment to attain the immediacy i had in my smaller room.

i have speakers on my patio which are part of my Bang & Olufsen whole house system....but no, i have not taken hifi speakers outside. 10 years ago when we hosted a Wedding in the back yard of our previous home; we did use some hifi speakers outside.....they were thin and dull sounding.

the Andra II has a sound similar to the Von Schweikert.....i think Albert designed them. i agree with your wife.....even though i like the WP7's i prefer the Andras. i'm not sure the darTZeel has quite enough current for the Andras. it's also possible that the impedance settings or the DC offset on the dart might have not been optimized for your setup.....both those issues are critical in getting the dart to sing.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 20:01

Strapper; thanks. good advice.

fyi, i'll likely be buried with the Rockport.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 19:39

MIke,

I was wondering, do you listen with your eyes open or closed?

Joey

joey_v February 11, 2007 17:06

Gregadd; thanks, i will buy it....i always appreciate music recs.

"speaking of bass"....i had another one of those bass 'surprises' last night. i put on "I Can See Clearly Now"; Holly Cole, Don't Smoke In Bed (Canadian Alert Pressing).....a really familiar disc and cut. there is a bit of siblance in her vocals.....which is on the recording. but i've always enjoyed the bass thumps at the beginning, then the piano comes in. it always puts a smile on my face.

only "this" time the bass wasn't just a 'thump'.....it had texture and articulation. then when the piano came in it had an added vibrancy and fire.......an old cut made new.

neat.

i have never heard bass detail that i am now hearing.....and the difference is not subtle.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 16:31

Mike, I received allot of emails and calls from friends regarding what was going on in my system. Some were in awe but others said that they have also had a similar experiences with other cables not just VD. One explanation that was given was all technical, another explanation was that one cable may have got cooked more or even one cable may have got bent more, allot of technical mumble jumble. Well I have to say you sure have to bend these to make them fit and per cable it is not just one cable like the norm but two leads connected into one connector.

It's about 7:30am the next day and the cables are differently settling in, I'll give a week before I do some serious listening but I am liking what I am hearing.

Mike I can only imagine the sound you must be hearing as you said "this room and speakers are made for large scale music and there was a great feeling of control and ease."

This is one area that I personally find different when listening to larger speakers in a larger room is a different sound, more fuller, more grand, more realistic for me anyways.

Some will disagree but that's my opinion.

If I could get away with it I would have larger speakers up stairs also in that "wife friendly" area. I'm working on it, it just might happen. My wife said that see prefers the sound of the new speakers (Eggleston Andra 2's which replaced WP7's) I showed her the pictures of the Savoy's next model up and all she said was what ever why do you need these? You have your own room.

I have to say I am really happy with these Andra's, very musical and over all very convincing but I have memories of other speakers I have had set up in my previous main room that I can't get out of my head.

Smaller speakers just have a over all different sound, In my last home I had a very large room, I had Monoliths, Mag.20's, PMC BB5's active and my favorites were the IRS Infinities four piece set-up is Rosewood. Wow! what a sound stage they threw but you really need a big room like 30' x 40' with min 12' ceilings for the IRS's to get the best out of these.

Have you ever set-up speakers out side? I have, I actually set-up the PMC BB5 XBD active and the IRS's unbelievable.

The DarTZeel, a friend brought his over and we hooked them up to the Andra's, didn't really work well with them. In his system he has the same Vandy 5A's and the all in one EMM cd player and the sound is really good so I know it wasn't the DarTZeel but just the set-up with my Andra's didn't work.

I am look forward to reading more, looking forward to when you talk about the differences vs Von Schweikert.

dev February 11, 2007 15:20

Hi Mike,I talked to you once on the the phone about the Kharma's and you were as nice and helpful as could be.You are very serious about your committment to music and equipment shown by your room and endless search for the ultimate listening pleasure.You work hard and you have the means to keep up with technology,if anyone has a problem with that tell them to kiss your a-s.You only live once enjoy every day of it.By the way if you ever consider selling that rockport let me know I just drool over that.Happy listening and good health.
Robert

strapper211 February 11, 2007 13:06

For true bass fun try the soundtrack to the movie "Cruel Intentions".

gregadd February 11, 2007 12:38

in the late 1950's and early 1960's around our house we listened to the NBC Nightly News with Huntley-Brinkley; which used the 2nd Movement of Beethoven's 9th as it's openning theme. i loved that 'tune' then, and still do.....even though i did not know the name of the 'tune' until years later.

in college; when i got my first stereo; i purchased a complete Beethoven Symphonies Box Set (i think it was one of the Karajan ones but don't really remember). i was into 60's and 70's rock (no jazz or Classical) but i also played Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 9th quite regularly. i just liked them. the particular set i had was a bit faster paced than some i have heard over the years and i still prefer that approach to Beethoven.

i still don't know much about classical music; but i as my system gets more and more refined i listen to more and more classical....and Beethoven is still a focus. i have 5 complete sets of Beethoven's Symphonies on CD and a couple on Lp.....as well as numerous individual recordings of the symphonies. you can never have too much Beethoven (i know many have much more than i).

i just got a new SACD of Beethoven's 9th; Haitink with the London Symphony Orchestra. it's a multi-channel hybrid.

i just listened to the whole thing (in DSD 2-channel) with the lights low. talk about a wonderful time listening to music.

i am in no way qualified to judge classical music other than how it sounds to me. but the recording is full of energy, well paced, beautifully recorded and has that sense of explosiveness when the opportunity presents itself....and yet is also tender and touching.

there are some considerable fireworks from the kettle drums (stage right toward the rear) which the MM3's handle with aplomb; particularly in the 1st and 2nd movements. i was concerned that they would not hold together at the SPL's i was listening at.....but they exploded naturally with clarity and texture.

the 2nd movement was captivating with great pace and flow, better than ever.

the recording has good depth and decent width, with nice layering and localization, but not spotlighting. the room and MM3's separate intstruments well and there is excellent micro-dynamics as well as clarity and warmth.

i won't try to 'review' this music...it's way over my pay grade.

i would say that it's clear that the MM3's and my room were made for each other.....and the darTZeel amp was everything it needed to be. this room and speakers are made for large scale music and there was a great feeling of control and ease.

basically; if it's good enough for a great Beethoven's 9th......i heard no limitations......it's good enough.

mikelavigne February 11, 2007 05:45